Gibson files to cancel DiMarzio’s PAF and Double Cream pickup trademarks

[Inflames626]

Patents are renewable. You just renew.

The timing of all of them has to do with the expected use.

Copyright is a unique work, a song, a novel, a painting, so it has the longest protection.

Patent is for a process or product, theory being once you've made your money off it, there should be an opportunity for it to enter the public domain and become ubiquitous, benefiting all. But you can renew if you are still producing the product or using that proprietary process.

Trademarks are any identifying characteristic of your brand, often common things like words, phrases, colors, shapes; so if you don't use it, you lost it pretty fast. The thinking being other people should be allowed to use common elements, acronyms, etc., so we shouldn't allow one business to monopolize the use of common things.

Excellent answer. Only service mark was missing.

 

[Aceman]

Let's put on our big boy adult pants, and stop with the whiney little b!tch talk.

#1 In no way shape or form should you be allowed to trademark, patent or any other restriction on a COLOR.

#2 Larry is a Bag who deserves to lose this. We all know people running around replacing pickups are not confusing anything for a Super Distortion just because double cream or double hex.

#3 Gibson will be a PITA regardless of how this turns out, because they are more interested in their rights than their products - most of which most of you can't afford anyway.

#4 And here is the REALLY tough pill: In our mostly US centric minds, we do not realize that our "intellectual property" of Trademark, patent etc...mindset is shared by a very very small percentage of the world as we know it. Mostly here in fact. No where else do they allow you sit on your @$$ and collect money or stifle progress or whatever like they do here. We are literally talking about shapes and colors. If the auto market worked like this most of the cars would be in violation of all kinds of crap.

Invent your thing, make your money, and move on or perish. Welcome to reality.

 

[Inflames626]

Let's put on our big boy adult pants, and stop with the whiney little b!tch talk.

#1 In no way shape or form should you be allowed to trademark, patent or any other restriction on a COLOR.

#2 Larry is a Bag who deserves to lose this. We all know people running around replacing pickups are not confusing anything for a Super Distortion just because double cream or double hex.

#3 Gibson will be a PITA regardless of how this turns out, because they are more interested in their rights than their products - most of which most of you can't afford anyway.

#4 And here is the REALLY tough pill: In our mostly US centric minds, we do not realize that our "intellectual property" of Trademark, patent etc...mindset is shared by a very very small percentage of the world as we know it. Mostly here in fact. No where else do they allow you sit on your @$$ and collect money or stifle progress or whatever like they do here. We are literally talking about shapes and colors. If the auto market worked like this most of the cars would be in violation of all kinds of crap.

Invent your thing, make your money, and move on or perish. Welcome to reality.

^This.

Besides, China and its counterfeiters have as much respect for U.S. intellectual property as most people do for toilet paper.

I think the real thing is to raise marketing visibility to U.S. customers. If Gibson wins, they're a more "prestigious" company.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

It's funny that now most of the guitar world is cheering for Gibson's lawsuit now.

 

[Inflames626]

It's funny that now most of the guitar world is cheering for Gibson's lawsuit now.

Gibson needs to be in tough financial straits again so it has to lower prices to sell more units to make a profit margin. End the lifestyle brand angle. Build better guitars for less money. Innovate new products like they did in the 50s-70s.

Were they more competitively priced, I might buy a new Gibson. Instead, I buy a used Epiphone. Smart move, Gibson.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Gibson needs to be in tough financial straits again so it has to lower prices to sell more units to make a profit margin. End the lifestyle brand angle. Build better guitars for less money. Innovate new products like they did in the 50s-70s.

Were they more competitively priced, I might buy a new Gibson. Instead, I buy a used Epiphone. Smart move, Gibson.

I'd prefer it if they had kinda like what Fender does with Fender MIM.

Epis are alright, but some of the product differentiation they have going on does feel uncomfortably unnecessary, IMO.

Fender MIM is better than Epiphone, IME. Epiphone is more or less on par with Squier Classic Vibe. Don't get me wrong, CV's are great, it's just that they're way cheaper than Epis.

 

[Inflames626]

I'd prefer it if they had kinda like what Fender does with Fender MIM.

Epis are alright, but some of the product differentiation they have going on does feel uncomfortably unnecessary, IMO.

Fender MIM is better than Epiphone, IME. Epiphone is more or less on par with Squier Classic Vibe. Don't get me wrong, CV's are great, it's just that they're way cheaper than Epis.

It's not that I love Epis or even Kramers. It's that they offer LP body shapes with Floyd Roses or more modern designs like a 25.5" scale length.

I'd like a Les Paul Studio with that for maybe $1500 brand new but Gibson won't do it. Dilutes the heritage/lifestyle brand.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

It's not that I love Epis or even Kramers. It's that they offer LP body shapes with Floyd Roses or more modern designs like a 25.5" scale length.

Yeah, I doubt that we'll get one of those soon from Gibson.

I used to think "go LTD, rather", but at this time, the higher-end LTD's are even more expensive than the lower-end Gibsons.

Then again, even if a Floyd wouldn't stop me from buying a guitar I'd really like, I don't think I'd ever fall in love visually with a singlecut with a trem. But that's JMO.

Like those PRS Tremontis with trems. They're such an eyesore for me, LOL. But that may be because the PRS Trem is so much more Fender-looking than a Floyd. Like... imagine a Les Paul with a Tele headstock, LOL.

 

[Inflames626]

Yeah I don't dig those wimpy looking Wilkinson style trems. Compared to a Floyd it's like seeing a 50s car next to one made in the 80s.

Right now only the Alex Lifeson Epi really tempts me of their current production stuff, and it is Floyded.

 

[marcello252]

From an european point of observation, all this is really funny, anyway I hope Gibson will win , for the matter of principle I said earlier

 

[Securb]

Like... imagine a Les Paul with a Tele headstock, LOL.

Yes, it would be a nightmare

 

[Aceman]

Gibson isn't doing this to right a wrong. They are doing this to milk nickels and dimes out of defenseless boutique pickup makers. And Duncan and DiMarzio, of course.

 

[RanchManSandy]

Patents are renewable. You just renew.

​​​​​​Don't spread misinformation. Patents are not "renewable" in the sense that you can indefinitely prolong them. They have a maintenance fee every so often during their active period, but they DO expire.

Anyway,
​​​​​
Now, like everyone here, I think double-cream shouldn't be something Dim has a monopoly on.

However, trademarking colorways, *in some situations* makes sense. Bear with me on this hypothetical: If I were to partner with some billionaire arsehole and start a major package delivery corporation with a deceptive name and use FedEx's exact purple and orange colors in my logo and branding, it should be very, very obvious how that could mislead customers.

Will Gibson win this court case? I'm thinking probably not, unfortunately. Dimarzio has protected themselves very well and survived many similar challenges. It's a real bummer for the end-users like us. Especially me since I didn't get a chance to order any of those Stew-Mac pickups when they still had the double cream versions up for sale.
​​​

 

[larryguitar]

The biggest frustration for me, and also something I think that may have changed since DMZ last defended their mark, is that only reputable pickup makers are really impacted by this restriction; anyone who wants a double-cream humbucker can get one delivered to their door with absolutely zero problem:

https://www.amazon.com/LYWS-Electric-Guitar-Humbucker-Pickups/dp/B08BLLWZPL/ref=sr_1_6?crid=24CORMLBU705S&keywords=cream%2Bhumbucker&qid=1702606975&sprefix=cream%2Bhumbucker%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-6&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/LYWS-Electric-Guitar-Humbucker-Pickups/dp/B08BLLWZPL/ref=sr_1_8?
crid=24CORMLBU705S&keywords=cream%2Bhumbucker&qid=1702607100&sprefix=cream%2Bhumbucker%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-8&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/AGBARR-Electric-Guitar-Double-Humbucker/dp/B0CBLW8YL3/ref=sr_1_51?crid=WXBH3YI2F3JC&keywords=ivory%2Bhumbucker&qid=1702607251&sprefix=ivory%2Bhumbucker%2Caps%2C136&sr=8-51&th=1


Double row of allen screws on a double cream? Still no problem:

https://www.amazon.com/Ceramic-Potted-Humbucker-Electric-Pickups/dp/B09CYPW62J/ref=sr_1_57?crid=WXBH3YI2F3JC&keywords=ivory%2Bhumbucker&qid=1702607251&sprefix=ivory%2Bhumbucker%2Caps%2C136&sr=8-57&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.17d9e15d-4e43-4581-b373-0e5c1a776d5d&th=1


I'm imagining Gibson will be bringing similar lists to court-

Larry

 

[MikeS]

DiMarzio's 'cream' was a very specific color mix designed to match Gibson's aged butyrate plastics, which is why other companies in the U.S. could still make ivory, mint and other simulated aged white colors.

I've wondered how some companies got away with double cream, or if it was simply a case of a company testing Dimazio's willingness to enforce the trademark. about 15 years ago I had a BC Rich Mockingbird that came with double cream humbuckers. The BCR cream was a little more on the yellow scale than Dimarzio's cream, and had the BC Rich logo on them. I never heard if Dimarzio went after BC Rich for that, or if the inclusion of the logo was enough to skirt trademark enforcement.

 

[Mincer]

'Cream' can mean many colors, and sometimes you can't tell unless they are right next to each other.

 

[Inflames626]

I hope this isn't a silly question, but can one simply buy double cream bobbins (or the closest thing to them) and reassemble one's humbucker around them?

It seems like a lot of trouble to go to for a color that isn't really desirable, but then again I prefer them black. I prefer logos on front to prove the authenticity of the pickup without having to look at the baseplate sticker. I don't remember seeing DMZ logos on the front like EMG and SD, but I rarely use DMZ. The only ones I ever saw didn't have logos.

It's like a car without a brand badge. Bugs me.

 

[Mincer]

Are you talking about taking all of the wire off the existing bobbins and winding it on different bobbins? At that point, just make your own pickup.

 

[MikeS]

I hope this isn't a silly question, but can one simply buy double cream bobbins (or the closest thing to them) and reassemble one's humbucker around them?

Short of completely re-winding the pickup, the only way I know to make your own double cream is by swapping bobbins between zebra and reverse-zebra pickups.

 

[beaubrummels]

I've wondered how some companies got away with double cream, or if it was simply a case of a company testing Dimazio's willingness to enforce the trademark. about 15 years ago I had a BC Rich Mockingbird that came with double cream humbuckers. The BCR cream was a little more on the yellow scale than Dimarzio's cream, and had the BC Rich logo on them. I never heard if Dimarzio went after BC Rich for that, or if the inclusion of the logo was enough to skirt trademark enforcement.

The trademark was only valid in the U.S., so foreign pickup winders could make double-cream all day long. I don't know if B.C. Rich got their pickups from an overseas source, but that would be one way to get around it.

The other part was the pole pieces. Originally, I believe DiMarzio's claim included double rows of hex/allen heads and standard row of screws/row of slugs. But it doesn't include blades or other unconventional pole piece arrangements, like 3x3 or dual rows of screws. For example, I believe it would be perfectly fine if Duncan made a double-cream Parallel Axis.