Gibson Last straw...

[KeeperOS]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

By milking I meant not making any real effort to put out as a quality product as they once used to but rather use the Gibson name to sell their lower-quality current products.

OK, you got me, at the 1950-1960s they did have machines that could aid in the manufacture of wood-related products. Still however, other than a ruler they didn't have much more in the way of precision. That's what I meant.
CNC can go off but not nearly as often or as much as a human eye/hand.

And I agree with you, sometimes you cannot avoid putting out dogs, either because of some unforeseen event/chance or/and the inconsistency of the most basic part, the wood.

However when you got a production line that involves sticking necks to bodies virtually based on luck, systematically poorly misplaced bridges and perhaps THE worst fretwork in guitars costing more than 4 or 5 hundred bucks then, I say something is wrong.

Now, like I said, PLEKking their Standards is a good start, provided the one doing it actually puts the time to do it right (remember, a PLEK job is only as good as the guy doing it).
I feel that, were they to start PLEKking their entire Gibson production line (Studio and up) both us and they would see a hell of a lot less of this kind of complains...

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

However when you got a production line that involves sticking necks to bodies virtually based on luck, systematically poorly misplaced bridges and perhaps THE worst fretwork in guitars costing more than 4 or 5 hundred bucks then, I say something is wrong.

The neck angle seems to be consistent in my experience, and the glue joints are very solid. It's not as if the necks are moving around in the pocket or falling off the guitars, and I just haven't run into all these intonation problems that are suddenly in vogue to gripe about. The pre-Plek fretwork has been pretty bad, especially about 5 years ago, but THE worst? I'd have to give that title to Fender.

The bad ones by Gibson are REALLY bad, it's not hard to find one with great playability, especially lately. But while Fenders that are that bad are fairly rare, it's really hard in my experience to find a Fender that has great playability. Over the past 15 years that I've been trying Fenders, Fender on the whole rarely has a guitar on the rack that I've tried that didn't have to have uncomfortably high action to get rid of really bad buzzing. And I'm not talking about the kind of fret buzz that doesn't come through the amp either.

 

[KeeperOS]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Dunno man, did you happen to see that Gibson episode of "Some assembly required" (or however that show is called).

It actually showed the guy routing, sanding and fitting the neck to the pocket ALL BY HAND, he didn't take a SINGLE measurement.
If they can systematically manage to NOT screw sth up like that then I'm certainly impressed.
Now about the frets, dunno man, the day I tested that Vixen exactly before that I had tested a Fender USA Std, not even a Deluxe or sth, cost about 2/3 the Vixen did. It's frets weren't the best I'd tried but certainly not bad either.
They didn't have that silky feel but try as I might I didn't get any kind of buzz, not even acoustically, and the action was about medium/medium-low.

Now the Vixen?
My 300 euros guitar had frets that were better than it.
That AND the BFG that I tried both had THE worst frets I had EVER played, EVER.
(the BFG was no.2 and the Vixen a not-so-glorious no.1).
And again, this was at a shop that pays that extra something to make sure they get first pick on every shipment...
(In all fairness though, both the BFG and the Vixen weren't 2008 models, they were about 2006-2007 so I can't vouch that they haven't since improved)

Again, just because they screwed up till now it doesn't mean that they can't improve or that if they do improve, people shouldn't get their guitars just on principle.
All I'm saying is if they gotta give the price tag, SYSTEMATICALLY make guitars that are worth it...
(And IMO the PLEK seems like a good first step...)

 

[JeffB]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Here's the link:

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/its-here-gibson-usas-2008/

This is actually quite a bit of an upgrade. Not only PLekked (which is really the BIG upgrade) but also strap locks, tonepros, locking tuners, neutrik jack, new custom pots, new lneck tennon (sounds alot like Hamer's) etc. This should make for a instrument much more worthy of the sale price (though I wish they had stuck with locking Kluson style and not those heavy grovers)

 

[octavedoctor]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

remember, a PLEK job is only as good as the guy doing it)

i can attest to that.


A while ago, in a thread I started on PLEK machines, someone said that the Gibson "Heritage" series were all plek'd. My fried Clive bought one and i've just had to re-dress the fret.

Likewise, Heritage guitars are reputed to Plek all their output. I've seen one that was beautifully done, couldn't find a flaw in it, but one I saw today was buzzing all over the place, so while I am sure that the PLek machine has its uses, I'm not convinced that it's the eighth wonder that people are claiming it to be...

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

I am sure that the PLek machine has its uses, I'm not convinced that it's the eighth wonder that people are claiming it to be...

The Plek's not better than the person putting the instrument into the right position for a correct reading of the neck and chosing the right program to do the right job for the instrument involved.

Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy

 

[uOpt]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Well, good news: The 2008 Standard finally came out, and they now come standard Plekked. So at least the fretwork problem is solved. That said, I think Gibsons on the whole have improved in the last few years.

I don't think that the Plek machine does anything about the fret edges, right?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

That I don't know.

 

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

It's funny to me how my friend, who owns a $2000-ish Les Paul would be the first to agree with me that they are over-priced. "You're paying for the name", he insists. However, he also points to resale value and what you get from the instrument. I can agree that they're nice, and maybe some day when $2000 plus a pickup swap and mod is affordable, I might get one. Until then, however, I've found that my income limits my gear selection, but not my playing ability, and certainly not my tone.

I've played his Les Paul. It's a wonderful instrument. Sounds good, versatile, easy to use, and predictable. However, I can get the same or better for less, at least in my opinion. That and they're not very comfortable compared to other body styles.

 

[wanmei1]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Well here's my take on Gibsons for what it's worth.
Many people feel that the prices currently being asked for a Gibson are too high.
I think that a lot of people including Gibson owners such as myself are starting to question how the prices can be as high as they are.
Fortunately for Gibson there seems to be no end of people that will pay whatever the asking price is.
My personal belief is that for the money being charged, the majority of these guitars should be superb and without equal. It should almost be a forgone conclusion that if you buy a Gibson today it should be fault free and be the standard to which all other manufacturers strive.
It is my belief that only one in every four Gibsons produced today is a really well executed guitar , which means that the majority of Gibsons come with faults that need to be rectified.
At the prices being charged I find this unacceptable.
Surely the only justification for the high price could be that one is 90 percent sure of getting a guitar that is par excellence and has no competition at or near the price.

 

[Bludave]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Well I own a lot of guitars. Some Gibsons, some Fenders, and some "lesser" known brands. I only buy guitars that I like and want to play and that feel good in my hands. The "lesser brand" guitars just don't get played as much as my Gibsons and Fenders. It doesn't mean that Gibsons are better (but I believe they are) they just feel better to me. I like ALL of my guitars, thats why I bought them. I have played some Gibsons that I did not like, but thats because it did not feel right in my hands or I did not like the way they sounded. I also feel you need to shop for guitars. My 3 Favorite Gibsons are a 1968 SG that I bought new for $235, I bought a black Les Paul Standard (1990) in 1991 used for $600.00 and my 1985 335 Dot RI which I bought used for $1200. Those are all reasonable prices to pay for guitars. You never fall in love with a guitar until you find it for the right price! It has to play, feel and sound right, but it also has to be priced right. I usually buy my guitars used.

 

[theodie]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Well here's my take on Gibsons for what it's worth.
Many people feel that the prices currently being asked for a Gibson are too high.
I think that a lot of people including Gibson owners such as myself are starting to question how the prices can be as high as they are.
Fortunately for Gibson there seems to be no end of people that will pay whatever the asking price is.
My personal belief is that for the money being charged, the majority of these guitars should be superb and without equal. It should almost be a forgone conclusion that if you buy a Gibson today it should be fault free and be the standard to which all other manufacturers strive.
It is my belief that only one in every four Gibsons produced today is a really well executed guitar , which means that the majority of Gibsons come with faults that need to be rectified.
At the prices being charged I find this unacceptable.
Surely the only justification for the high price could be that one is 90 percent sure of getting a guitar that is par excellence and has no competition at or near the price.

That is basically how I see it.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

I don't think that the Plek machine does anything about the fret edges, right?

Aren't the fret edges under the binding on most Gibson models?

 

[uOpt]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Aren't the fret edges under the binding on most Gibson models?

Well, about half, right? LP and SG Standard and Custom.

Not on Studios, Faded, Explorers, Vs, singlecut and doublecut specials, almost everything with P-90ties.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Well here's my take on Gibsons for what it's worth.
Many people feel that the prices currently being asked for a Gibson are too high.

Yes. They do. Every single thread complaining about Gibson in the cyber universe says this over and over and over and over. We get it everybody, it's a lot of money to pay for a dog. So don't buy the bad Gibsons, only the great ones. Problem solved.

I think that a lot of people including Gibson owners such as myself are starting to question how the prices can be as high as they are.

An odd question for anyone with a basic understanding of economics, which includes you, because...

Fortunately for Gibson there seems to be no end of people that will pay whatever the asking price is.

...you answered your own question. You will know Gibsons are priced too high when sales and then inevitably prices start falling. It's that simple.

My personal belief is that for the money being charged, the majority of these guitars should be superb and without equal.

I partially agree. Which is why when I buy a Gibson, I make sure it fits that description first. Anyone who would go ahead and buy a Gibson (or any guitar) that's a dog deserves what they got. Play it before you pay it.

It is my belief that only one in every four Gibsons produced today is a really well executed guitar , which means that the majority of Gibsons come with faults that need to be rectified. At the prices being charged I find this unacceptable.

It's perfectly acceptable if you bypass the dogs and buy only the good ones. Never reward any company for putting out a bad guitar. Let it rot on the rack and buy the only the dreams. Sure, it does harm to Gibson or any company to let out dogs, but that's their problem, not yours.

Surely the only justification for the high price could be that one is 90 percent sure of getting a guitar that is par excellence and has no competition at or near the price.

That didn't quite make sense. If the competition makes guitars at or near the same price, don't they have to be held to the same standards? -- thereby making it impossible for high priced company A to put out a guitar that has no competition at or near the price?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Dunno man, did you happen to see that Gibson episode of "Some assembly required" (or however that show is called).

It actually showed the guy routing, sanding and fitting the neck to the pocket ALL BY HAND, he didn't take a SINGLE measurement.
If they can systematically manage to NOT screw sth up like that then I'm certainly impressed.

There's no possibility that said video was edited or otherwise warped by somebody with an axe (so to speak) to grind?

Now about the frets, dunno man, the day I tested that Vixen exactly before that I had tested a Fender USA Std, not even a Deluxe or sth, cost about 2/3 the Vixen did. It's frets weren't the best I'd tried but certainly not bad either.

That was sort of my point. What you found in the Fender is about 95% typical in my experience. While you won't find many that are awful, you won't find many Fenders with really good fretwork either. Fender's fretwork is consistently mediocre while Gibson's seem to run the whole spectrum, meaning you will find quite a few with very fine fretwork, especially in the last 2-3 years it seems.

Now the Vixen? My 300 euros guitar had frets that were better than it. That AND the BFG that I tried both had THE worst frets I had EVER played, EVER. All I'm saying is if they gotta give the price tag, SYSTEMATICALLY make guitars that are worth it...

And you can help them get there by buying only the good ones and letting the bad ones rot. Or if you prefer, boycott Gibson entirely. But you'll miss out because the good ones really are worth it and then some. That's why I still love Gibson.

 

[wanmei1]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Zhang, I think your being a little pedantic and I think you get the jist of what's being said !
I know how I buy a good guitar ( and I'll tell you. ) but please tell me how you buy a good guitar.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Well, about half, right? LP and SG Standard and Custom.

Not on Studios, Faded, Explorers, Vs, singlecut and doublecut specials, almost everything with P-90ties.

You sure about that?

Maybe I'm not keeping up with the model stuff- but anything beyond "entry level" Gibson stuff is going to have binding. That means Vs, Explorers and Specials would all have binding. I don't know about the "faded" series stuff-

 

[uOpt]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

You sure about that?

Maybe I'm not keeping up with the model stuff- but anything beyond "entry level" Gibson stuff is going to have binding. That means Vs, Explorers and Specials would all have binding. I don't know about the "faded" series stuff-

No, Studios, Vs, Explorers don't. Too lazy to look at the Specials right now.

No binding plays better anyway - if properly fretted and the fretboard edges are rolled a bit.

 

[BloodRose]

Re: Gibson Last straw...

Zhang,

I agree with your post saying everyone puts out dogs. But, brand G charges so much, and if they are dogs, you better avoid it at the store.. With a Carvin, send it back so they can make it right. With a Gibson, somebody will buy it regardless cuz its a Gibson..