Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Roman? As in, Ed Roman? If his spawn are in on this, it could be an interesting approach for that brand.

Sorta surprised Paul didn't get PRS in on this. I suppose he got his point across when he had his pals in DC go after Henry on the Lacey act in retaliation for the Singlecut lawsuit.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

No actually they didnt. Well ok to be clear they were granted and injunction against PRS but this was eventually overturned.

As I recall it, Gibson won on a Motion for Summary Judgement which is often used to parry down groundless causes of actions and is quite a bit different than injunctive relief. In this case, it was granted in full, which basically meant that a (Tennessee-based) judge found that Gibson's case was so strong, he granted Gibson a complete victory without the case proceeding to trial. This is very rare. I had never seen this before in any case let alone an I.P. case like this. But Motions for Summary Judgement are appealable and PRS won, in total, on appeal thereby vacating the MSJ and giving them a complete victory.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Gibson have done a pretty good job of stamping out HummingBird copies. I doubt this will succeed though.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

2 things:

1. Doesn't seem defensible if they waited a half century to register.
2. What is Gibson planning with the 335 shape that they feel they need to lock out other companies now all of a sudden?
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Some companies innovate and don't have to copy a size.

b649b712276fdda387457f289d0fe363_zpseb4af1ce.jpg



The Ibby semi-hollow would be another example.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

If Gibson really had it their way the Ibanez musician would be forbidden, too, based on ... something. Headstock angle. 4-pot control. Neck bindings. Something.

The boundaries have to be clarified and it looks like Gibson is doing us the favor of clarifying them once and for all while footing much of the bill.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

As I recall it, Gibson won on a Motion for Summary Judgement which is often used to parry down groundless causes of actions and is quite a bit different than injunctive relief. In this case, it was granted in full, which basically meant that a (Tennessee-based) judge found that Gibson's case was so strong, he granted Gibson a complete victory without the case proceeding to trial. This is very rare. I had never seen this before in any case let alone an I.P. case like this. But Motions for Summary Judgement are appealable and PRS won, in total, on appeal thereby vacating the MSJ and giving them a complete victory.

Yes. But, it's different with different types of IP. And judges are reluctant to grant motions for summary judgment because if those motions are overturned they look really bad... So even though there are some cases where they think the law dictates a certain outcome, but aren't 100% sure, they'll let it proceed to trial. Because then they can blame the jury for the wrong decision.

As far as different types of IP, the thing is trademarks, copyrights, and patents are kind of shoehorned together... They're very distinct areas with distinct requirements. You might for example see more summary judgment cases with patents because the specification for each patent has to be so detailed. Actually, now that I think about it patent cases are handled mostly by the executive branch.

Trademarks are massive, but there are certain things they can't control. The one most important here is functionality. You can't trademark the shape of a garden hose because in order for that hose to work it has to be that shape or a shape really close to it. You can't trademark colors of makeup or smells of perfume, but you can trademark the smell of makeup and the color of perfume. The function of what you trademark can not be essential to its use... Which is totally the case with solid body electric guitars. And even then you could argue that - but to my ears the upper horn on a strat vs. a tele has less to do with the sound than the middle pickup... Or the tremolo... etc. etc.

At any rate with an acoustic guitar (hollow bodied), the body shape is all that matters. If you can look me in the eyes and tell me that a dreadnaught and a jumbo and a 000 sized guitar like eric clapton uses sound the same you are either deaf or need an oscar. The shape of those guitars is what makes them sound like they do...

The problem with the es-335 is that it's both. It's solid wood if you look at it along the plane of the strings. But it has two hollow wings. So which is it? Is it a solid body, where it would be much easier to argue that you can absolutely trademark the shape, or is it a hollow body to where you can say that the specific shape of the instrument is an integral part of the sound you get from it? Does the trademark cover only that shape even if the guitar is deeper and fully hollow?

Trademarks get overturned all of the time. Things like escalator, kleenex, and so on became useless as trademarks because they became the generic term for that type of good. But it's very hard to prove that a trademark has become a generic term for that type of thing... Xerox fought this very battle in the 80s. More recently google has fought the use of the word "google" as a verb because that jeopardizes their trademark. So, all is not lost. It's a delicate balance in terms of how long you wait before you file for a trademark. Long enough that it's recognizable, but not so long to allow it to become ubiquitous.

2 things:

1. Doesn't seem defensible if they waited a half century to register.
2. What is Gibson planning with the 335 shape that they feel they need to lock out other companies now all of a sudden?

1. It's industry specifc, but you're right. And plus my earlier point about functionality.
2. Nothing... By definition if they trademark that shape they can only use that shape as a trademark. They just want to corner the market and they have very good lawyers.

If Gibson really had it their way the Ibanez musician would be forbidden, too, based on ... something. Headstock angle. 4-pot control. Neck bindings. Something.

The boundaries have to be clarified and it looks like Gibson is doing us the favor of clarifying them once and for all while footing much of the bill.

That's why functionality is so important. Because companies will try and trademark things that affect how well a product works... Sometimes people will patent a type of nozzle that requires a unique shape, and then when the patent expires they'll try and trademark that shape. That way, nobody else can make their product, ever. Much more common is the pharmaceutical companies who build brand equity while other competitors are kept out of the ring so to speak. You can (and should) buy generic drugs that are formulated exactly the same, but people will consistently pay more for name-brand drugs because they're recognizable.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

The whole thing could be seen by some as a negative public image. For example, 'why is one of very few guitar companies that is turning a nice profit being this way?' Guys around here say a similar things about a the double-cream bobbin. Sometimes companies understand the value of their public image. Sometimes they do not. Customers see those sorts of things and sales are affected.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

The whole thing could be seen by some as a negative public image.

Gibson('s CEO) seems to perceive public imagine the other way round. They/he really like to play the victim and really rub it in to the public and their customers. That is why they initially reacted to the wood seizure by going non-solid rosewood fretboard and richlite, although all other manufacturers had no problems getting legal ebony and thick enough rosewood. Why? Because he wanted to play the victim and rub it in. Luckily they took some of this back by now and label things more clearly.

For each individual here it is very hard to see what this kind of publicity stunt does to the general image. I think it is a negative thing that will not improve your standing with existing customers and particularly not win over borderline customers. To me it looks like holding the customer hostage and have them carry the fallout from some mess.

Playing the victim on the 335 shape, which they/he will be doing after losing, will not improve things, but at least it isn't outright negative.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Gibson('s CEO) seems to perceive public imagine the other way round. They/he really like to play the victim and really rub it in to the public and their customers. That is why they initially reacted to the wood seizure by going non-solid rosewood fretboard and richlite, although all other manufacturers had no problems getting legal ebony and thick enough rosewood. Why? Because he wanted to play the victim and rub it in. Luckily they took some of this back by now and label things more clearly.

For each individual here it is very hard to see what this kind of publicity stunt does to the general image. I think it is a negative thing that will not improve your standing with existing customers and particularly not win over borderline customers. To me it looks like holding the customer hostage and have them carry the fallout from some mess.

Playing the victim on the 335 shape, which they/he will be doing after losing, will not improve things, but at least it isn't outright negative.

you know, you are spot-on with that assessment of Henry. I'm not going to bash the dude, but the way he handled the Lacey Act raid is an excellent example. but you can't deny the he played the marketing smart on that Government Series Lester, especially at that price point...who doesn't want to think they can stick it to the man and get a new LP for a $1,099 MSRP. while I may think the GS Lester can be seen at different levels of taste by people, Henry has taken Gibson from being on the chopping block for a $2M sales price in the 80s to being one of the more stable guitar companies today....and that's not me praising the guy, just making an observation. just like it's an observation that many people in the field think he bought the Kramer name to treat it like a red-headed stepchild after taking a financial beating from Kramer in the 80s. I wasn't there to see it, but people that were have independently said the same thing.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

Exactly. I know people like Henry in real life. They have the energy and drive to take something out of the gutter. The success then reinforces their views and they continue to operate in a very headstrong way, often to the amazement of their peers. Over time the connection between their antics and success can become very muddied and let's be honest as you get older you don't get quicker in re-evaluating your own actions.

Having said that, it looks like the wood front calmed down, possibly as a result of a negative reaction from the public. They still have some changes in place, such as the richlite for the most expensive non-CS guitar (WTF?), the LP custom, however as long as they clearly mark it that is between them and the buyer.
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

I think this is frivolous. If you are making a superior product, then the customers will choose it. If you have to resort to trying to eliminate the competition, then you are trying to say that we can put out any junk we want and since we are the only game in town.... Just like Harley Davidson trademarking their sound. They did this once the Japanese companies started getting serious about the cruiser market and giving them competition.
Again, make a superior product and customers will come to you.

Trademarking shape, sound, double cream, (er, um... color I mean) is not protection intellectual property, its more competition elimination...
 
Re: Gibson Trademarks 335 Shape

I'm kind of okay with this. As long as you allow shapes to be licensed (like fender's headstocks).

Guitars like teles, strats, Les Pauls, SGs, and 335's are among the greatest designs of the 20th century, and not just as guitars. When someone says "think of a guitar" to non-players, you know one of those designs pops in their heads. It has to suck to see all these other guys steal your designs. Especially cheap, crappy knockoffs.

Lots of other companies have designed great guitars which are not total copies of those classics. PRS, Parker, Music Man all have their own thing going on, even if they are adaptations of the classics. And Ibanez has certainly done its own thing with the original strat design, as well as the Artist models. Yamaha did, too, with the SBG and the Wellington (I think that's what it's called).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top