Hey guys are Groove Tubes really as junky as everyone is making them out to be? I know that Fender bought them and the aren't what they use to be but I've been hearing alot of negative feedback about them recently. What gives, what kinda tubes would you put in your amp if retubing? JJ's, Electro Harm? or something else and why?
Groove Tubes???????????
- Thread starter rgreen11
- Start date
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
First, Fender or not they are exactally what they used to be...OVERPRICED!!!
GT does make ANY tubes...they are all made by a number of tube builders and then bought, tested, matched, labeled and priced as GT Tubes...
The quality of GT Tubes is fine...as I said above they are THE SAME as several other tube brands but because they are tested and matched you get to pay the inflated GT Prices...
First, Fender or not they are exactally what they used to be...OVERPRICED!!!
GT does make ANY tubes...they are all made by a number of tube builders and then bought, tested, matched, labeled and priced as GT Tubes...
The quality of GT Tubes is fine...as I said above they are THE SAME as several other tube brands but because they are tested and matched you get to pay the inflated GT Prices...
misterwhizzy
Well-known member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
I think you'd get better help if you talked about what sound you're expecting, what type of music you play, and what type of amp you're playing through. Then tell us whether you want to replace tubes in the preamp or the power section. I know that we'll be able to help you, and I also happen to like dealing with Doug Preston.
I think you'd get better help if you talked about what sound you're expecting, what type of music you play, and what type of amp you're playing through. Then tell us whether you want to replace tubes in the preamp or the power section. I know that we'll be able to help you, and I also happen to like dealing with Doug Preston.
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
Groove Tubes DOES NOT make ANY vacuum tubes...never has!
The whole idea behind GT was to buy bulk tubes, test them to insure they would last, match them and sell them.
Groove Tubes DOES NOT make ANY vacuum tubes...never has!
The whole idea behind GT was to buy bulk tubes, test them to insure they would last, match them and sell them.
richard parker
New member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
I remember reading a number of articles describing Aspen Pittman (founder of Groove Tubes) as a snake oil salesman i.e. his more extensive matching process was hogwash and he sold many tubes that would have been rejected as sub standard by most vendors. Not my opinion, I don't know anything much about tubes, I'm just writing what I remember.
I remember reading a number of articles describing Aspen Pittman (founder of Groove Tubes) as a snake oil salesman i.e. his more extensive matching process was hogwash and he sold many tubes that would have been rejected as sub standard by most vendors. Not my opinion, I don't know anything much about tubes, I'm just writing what I remember.
LobsterSausage
New member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
I recommend the JJ tubes. I researched for awhile on which ones I wanted for my amp (see sig line) and decided I liked what I read about the JJ's on various review sites and the Eurotubes site itself. I emailed the guys and told them what I was going for. They matched me up a set. Package arrived, tubes installed, music made. I have to say, I am quite pleased with the sound.
I have also heard positive things about the EH Tubes. As for the GT's, I had a set of 12AX7's and they were "meh". They sounded alright.
I recommend the JJ tubes. I researched for awhile on which ones I wanted for my amp (see sig line) and decided I liked what I read about the JJ's on various review sites and the Eurotubes site itself. I emailed the guys and told them what I was going for. They matched me up a set. Package arrived, tubes installed, music made. I have to say, I am quite pleased with the sound.
I have also heard positive things about the EH Tubes. As for the GT's, I had a set of 12AX7's and they were "meh". They sounded alright.
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
I think most people knock GT becasue they don´t fully understand the concept.
What GT does is buy unmatched, untested tubes in industrial quantities, and then test, grade match and label them CONSISTANTLY.
Does a set of Groove Tubes cost a bit more? Yes. SO why should I pay that inflated price?
Becasue unlike many smaller vendors, when you swap out a GT tube for one with identical markings on teh box, you can be reassured and guaranteed that the sonic difference will be somewhere between miniscule and negligible.
This type consistency is of the utmost importance for professional musicians. If my amp falls off a truck and breaks a few tubes and the headcase, there is NOTHING in the world that feels better than knowing that the amp will sound exactly the same tonight in teh new headbox as it did in the original. If anybody every wondered why I play a 2204 but the only amp youve ever seen pics of looks like a knockoff that says "Attack Power, Heavy 50 Rock and Roll" on the panel, now you know why. I may have been a Ruby tubes endorsee at the time, but the basic princiiple is identical, and it most definitely saved the gig and tour
Of course there are in the meantime quite a few sellers of matched and unmatched, graded and ungraded tubes. They are all essentially cashing in on the business model that GT and RT /MP prove to be viable, becasue Bob at Eurotubes, Andy at TubeAmp Doctor, and others also don´t make any tubes themselves. So attacking GT or just about anyone else for not making their own tubes is essentially a load of hogwash.
Some do so cheaper, some offer better service, but to find the same grade of overall consistancy across the board (service, price, product quality and reliability) is not easy. And that´s why they´re still around and doing well. Add on to that tthat Aspen Pittmann is possibly one of the most knowledgable tube amp gurus on the planet and the authior of hte still "industtry bible" The Tube Amp Book", and it becomes pretty clear both why people love the products and why people hate them.
When you`re the king, everyone wants your throne. It´s only when somebody else finally gets that far that people realize how good they had it before
I think most people knock GT becasue they don´t fully understand the concept.
What GT does is buy unmatched, untested tubes in industrial quantities, and then test, grade match and label them CONSISTANTLY.
Does a set of Groove Tubes cost a bit more? Yes. SO why should I pay that inflated price?
Becasue unlike many smaller vendors, when you swap out a GT tube for one with identical markings on teh box, you can be reassured and guaranteed that the sonic difference will be somewhere between miniscule and negligible.
This type consistency is of the utmost importance for professional musicians. If my amp falls off a truck and breaks a few tubes and the headcase, there is NOTHING in the world that feels better than knowing that the amp will sound exactly the same tonight in teh new headbox as it did in the original. If anybody every wondered why I play a 2204 but the only amp youve ever seen pics of looks like a knockoff that says "Attack Power, Heavy 50 Rock and Roll" on the panel, now you know why. I may have been a Ruby tubes endorsee at the time, but the basic princiiple is identical, and it most definitely saved the gig and tour
Of course there are in the meantime quite a few sellers of matched and unmatched, graded and ungraded tubes. They are all essentially cashing in on the business model that GT and RT /MP prove to be viable, becasue Bob at Eurotubes, Andy at TubeAmp Doctor, and others also don´t make any tubes themselves. So attacking GT or just about anyone else for not making their own tubes is essentially a load of hogwash.
Some do so cheaper, some offer better service, but to find the same grade of overall consistancy across the board (service, price, product quality and reliability) is not easy. And that´s why they´re still around and doing well. Add on to that tthat Aspen Pittmann is possibly one of the most knowledgable tube amp gurus on the planet and the authior of hte still "industtry bible" The Tube Amp Book", and it becomes pretty clear both why people love the products and why people hate them.
When you`re the king, everyone wants your throne. It´s only when somebody else finally gets that far that people realize how good they had it before
Last edited:
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
One concept of tube manfacture is attrition. Even back in the tube era, the tubes that left the factory were actually only a fraction of the total production. The fraction that didn't leave the factory were recycled in house because they failed to meet minimum standards of performance and/or durability. Even among those that left the factory they was a range of good ones and those that were acceptable but maybe not so good. It was the vender or the technician that sorted these out back then. As quality declined the need to sort and match tubes by performance and also by sound created a bussiness oppurtunity for GT ect...
I think as time passed some venders, instead of throwing out product that didn't meet spec, began matching them together and selling them as having an alternative sound or okay in some amps but not others.
I think a lot more dodgey tubes are passed on not only by the factories and the distibutors, but also by the venders than ever before today. This is why one needs to seek out those that not only match tubes but also burn them in before making them available for sale. How do you know? You don't unless somebody that knows tells you who you can trust or you learn from experience. For example, the typical off the shelf 12AX7 will not live long in some of my amps. They will start humming or motor boating or something within a week unless they are of good quality regardless of their brand or origin. There are some that I will not buy from in the future. Sure they offer to exchange, but I don't have time or money to be their testing lab for them. That's their job and what they were paid for. Another thing I find is a bit of a wrong approach is to judge tubes by country of orgin. It's the tubes' performance and quality that matters. I understand that one may not want to support oppressive regimes (Socialist China) or organized criminals, or dirty bussinessmen, though.
One concept of tube manfacture is attrition. Even back in the tube era, the tubes that left the factory were actually only a fraction of the total production. The fraction that didn't leave the factory were recycled in house because they failed to meet minimum standards of performance and/or durability. Even among those that left the factory they was a range of good ones and those that were acceptable but maybe not so good. It was the vender or the technician that sorted these out back then. As quality declined the need to sort and match tubes by performance and also by sound created a bussiness oppurtunity for GT ect...
I think as time passed some venders, instead of throwing out product that didn't meet spec, began matching them together and selling them as having an alternative sound or okay in some amps but not others.
I think a lot more dodgey tubes are passed on not only by the factories and the distibutors, but also by the venders than ever before today. This is why one needs to seek out those that not only match tubes but also burn them in before making them available for sale. How do you know? You don't unless somebody that knows tells you who you can trust or you learn from experience. For example, the typical off the shelf 12AX7 will not live long in some of my amps. They will start humming or motor boating or something within a week unless they are of good quality regardless of their brand or origin. There are some that I will not buy from in the future. Sure they offer to exchange, but I don't have time or money to be their testing lab for them. That's their job and what they were paid for. Another thing I find is a bit of a wrong approach is to judge tubes by country of orgin. It's the tubes' performance and quality that matters. I understand that one may not want to support oppressive regimes (Socialist China) or organized criminals, or dirty bussinessmen, though.
d1dsj
Cornographer
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
Can't really comment as I know very little about valves other than when I bought my Cornford MK50 second hand it had a TAD valve in V1 ( JJ's in 2,3 ans 4) and sounded bloody awful! Put in a GT mullard r.i and the difference was night and day, sounds so much better now. I just put some brand new Harma Retro's in but may put the GT back in V1 as I'm experiencing more feedback than before? Sorry if that's gone off topic... but I was just trying to say my limited experience with GT's is pretty good!
Can't really comment as I know very little about valves other than when I bought my Cornford MK50 second hand it had a TAD valve in V1 ( JJ's in 2,3 ans 4) and sounded bloody awful! Put in a GT mullard r.i and the difference was night and day, sounds so much better now. I just put some brand new Harma Retro's in but may put the GT back in V1 as I'm experiencing more feedback than before? Sorry if that's gone off topic... but I was just trying to say my limited experience with GT's is pretty good!
aleclee
Major General GAS
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
I think the Mullard 12AX7 "reissues" are where GT started really taking a beating when it comes to quality. While I've had pretty good results with 'em, I've seen plenty of reports from folks who didn't.
While I firmly believe that there's no such thing as a free lunch, there are folks out there who do the same sort of thing that GT does without such a hefty premium. I think that's a big reason why GT started getting tubes made to their spec such as the aforementioned 12AX7M and the GE 6CA7: they needed "exclusive" tubes to justify their pricing.
I think the Mullard 12AX7 "reissues" are where GT started really taking a beating when it comes to quality. While I've had pretty good results with 'em, I've seen plenty of reports from folks who didn't.
While I firmly believe that there's no such thing as a free lunch, there are folks out there who do the same sort of thing that GT does without such a hefty premium. I think that's a big reason why GT started getting tubes made to their spec such as the aforementioned 12AX7M and the GE 6CA7: they needed "exclusive" tubes to justify their pricing.
marvar
New member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
My take is that before Fender bought them, and Myles Rose was around there, kinda' keeping them honest, they were usually dependable, readily available, and you could get them at 'street' cost. The GT 12ax7M was pretty much a disaster, with a few exceptions.
Since Fender took over, and Myles is no longer associated with them, I'm not so sure.
You can get the same tubes, selected just for you from other trusted vendors, at a better price.
I priced a GT 12ax7C at GC not long ago and it was like 25 bucks!
My take is that before Fender bought them, and Myles Rose was around there, kinda' keeping them honest, they were usually dependable, readily available, and you could get them at 'street' cost. The GT 12ax7M was pretty much a disaster, with a few exceptions.
Since Fender took over, and Myles is no longer associated with them, I'm not so sure.
You can get the same tubes, selected just for you from other trusted vendors, at a better price.
I priced a GT 12ax7C at GC not long ago and it was like 25 bucks!
Fender_Punk
BerriesAndCreamologist
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
All I can say is that I have used Groove Tube 6L6R (basically re-labbelled and matched Sovteks) in my Traynor YCV40 and I love the sound of my amp (which has Tung-Sol 12AX7s). The reason I got the GTs instead of Sovteks was the dealer only had single Sovteks and couldn't guarantee they'd be matched, whereas the Groove Tubes came as a matched pair.
All I can say is that I have used Groove Tube 6L6R (basically re-labbelled and matched Sovteks) in my Traynor YCV40 and I love the sound of my amp (which has Tung-Sol 12AX7s). The reason I got the GTs instead of Sovteks was the dealer only had single Sovteks and couldn't guarantee they'd be matched, whereas the Groove Tubes came as a matched pair.
karpathion
New member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
Groove tube is funny. The good thing is, you're gonna get the same thing every time.
The bad thing is, you pay alot more. You can't knock 'em, But you can't really praise them at the same time. If you like 'em, great! But if you don't like 'em, there's always jj.
It just depends on what your ears like.
Try 'em all, you'll find alot of different flavor in many tubes. I happen to like the gold lions myself. But it's my ear i'm trying to please not yours.
Groove tube is funny. The good thing is, you're gonna get the same thing every time.
The bad thing is, you pay alot more. You can't knock 'em, But you can't really praise them at the same time. If you like 'em, great! But if you don't like 'em, there's always jj.
It just depends on what your ears like.
Try 'em all, you'll find alot of different flavor in many tubes. I happen to like the gold lions myself. But it's my ear i'm trying to please not yours.
That90'sGuy
DyzaBoyzologist
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
Groove Tubes doesn't make bad stuff (I've had a few chinese 12ax7s before that worked pretty well and I managed to grab a Mullard RI that was pretty solid), but I've just found other manufacturers to buy from. EL-84s = JJ. General preamp tubes = Electro Harmonix and Shuguang 9th gen Chinese. EL-34s = Winged C Svetlanas. They seem to work well, so I don't mess with it.
Groove Tubes doesn't make bad stuff (I've had a few chinese 12ax7s before that worked pretty well and I managed to grab a Mullard RI that was pretty solid), but I've just found other manufacturers to buy from. EL-84s = JJ. General preamp tubes = Electro Harmonix and Shuguang 9th gen Chinese. EL-34s = Winged C Svetlanas. They seem to work well, so I don't mess with it.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
The YCV40s are auto biasing, so I would think that tube matching shouldn't be a big deal. Was there much audible difference between the GTs and Sovteks?
The YCV40s are auto biasing, so I would think that tube matching shouldn't be a big deal. Was there much audible difference between the GTs and Sovteks?
Fender_Punk
BerriesAndCreamologist
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
There was a subtle change in the amp's sound but I think that had more to do with changing the EH 12AT7 and Sovtek 12AX7s to Tung-Sol 12AX7s and just replacing well-used tubes with fresh ones. It was my 2nd tube swap and I knew at the time that the YCV has an auto-bias circuit and I had first swapped the stock Sovteks for unmatched Sovteks with no issues, but I figured it'd be better for the amp to give it a matched pair. I haven't had any problems with the amp and I'm loving the tone I've got now so I may stick to what is in there, though I would like to try EH 6L6s down the road, just to experiment.
There was a subtle change in the amp's sound but I think that had more to do with changing the EH 12AT7 and Sovtek 12AX7s to Tung-Sol 12AX7s and just replacing well-used tubes with fresh ones. It was my 2nd tube swap and I knew at the time that the YCV has an auto-bias circuit and I had first swapped the stock Sovteks for unmatched Sovteks with no issues, but I figured it'd be better for the amp to give it a matched pair. I haven't had any problems with the amp and I'm loving the tone I've got now so I may stick to what is in there, though I would like to try EH 6L6s down the road, just to experiment.
misterwhizzy
Well-known member
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
I don't think anyone is saying anything is that BAD about Groove Tubes, just that you can get more personalized service and perhaps cheaper prices elsewhere.
I don't think anyone is saying anything is that BAD about Groove Tubes, just that you can get more personalized service and perhaps cheaper prices elsewhere.
Re: Groove Tubes???????????
umm... you got a GT12AX7C
the real gold lion tubes were made by genalex in england and are crazy expensive. the new 'genalex gold lion' tubes are made by eh
umm... you got a GT12AX7C
the real gold lion tubes were made by genalex in england and are crazy expensive. the new 'genalex gold lion' tubes are made by eh
