Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
- Thread starter nikosteph
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Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
If money isn't a big problem Ruokangas Duke is imo right in the middle of a Les Paul, a PRS and a Strat. Ruokangas Unicorn is an awesome guitar as well.
Of course being a custom guitar you can spec the neck shapes, pickups, bridges etc as you like.
As for quality those are among the best made guitars in the world. Won't be cheap though.
If money isn't a big problem Ruokangas Duke is imo right in the middle of a Les Paul, a PRS and a Strat. Ruokangas Unicorn is an awesome guitar as well.
Of course being a custom guitar you can spec the neck shapes, pickups, bridges etc as you like.
As for quality those are among the best made guitars in the world. Won't be cheap though.
Grasshopper
New member
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
I'd suggest 3 options, ranging between about $500 (for a used guitar + new pickups) up to $1,500:
(1) Buy the PRS whose look and feel most seduce you, then swap pickups. Appropriate pup swaps will definitely make PRSi sound girthier. I own a bunch of PRS SE's -- mostly with replacement pickups, and all with thin mahogany backs (so lighter and more playable than a Les Paul or SC/SE 245), and all signed by Paul. So you might say I'm biased.
My Singlecut Trem SE with Duncan P-Rails, in humbucking mode, sounds darker than a LP. My best-sounding guitar is actually a magically modded Custom 22 SE, which sounds like a good LP -- but its mods are not replicable. The original owner rewound some mysteriously overwound pickups on the original G&B baseplates.
If you're able to A/B a PRS S2 Custom 22 against some LP's, you might find that it's close to what you want. PRS has gradually introduced darker-/warmer-sounding pickups over the last few years. Those pickups are what you might like -- 59/10's, 58/08's, or the S2 #7's on this S2 Custom 22.
On my SE Santana, I've ended up with a PRS S2 #7 neck pup, and a Duncan 59/Custom Hybrid bridge pup. This works (although I think I'd prefer an uncovered 59/10 at the neck -- some day). The 59/Custom Hybrid is truly hybrid: it has good body and a bit of snarl, but also some Alnico 5 woodiness. I wish Duncan made a similar neck pup. (Haven't tried PATBs or Sentients.) What you want to beef up a thin-backed PRS are mids, so DiMarzio would have good options, although I don't know their models well.
What you wouldn't want are refined, PAF-inspired humbuckers from Duncan or Gibson. They all sounded too scrawny on my PRS -- they're voiced for thick-backed Les Pauls. I went through a Duncan Pearly Gates, a Gibson '57 Classic (superb pup), and even two bridge pups at the neck -- Duncan Screamin' Demon and Gibson Super '57. They all sounded too scooped, like single-coil Fender pups. Duncan's '59 and Jazz are renowned for their scooped quality, so they're not advisable.
(2) Schecter C-1 Hellraiser. You can buy a pricey new copy with a passive-pickups option, or just find a used copy for $300-400 and swap on passive pickups. These are actually made in the same Korean factory as PRS SE's, and they're very PRS-like. The build quality and action have been superb on every copy I've played (including the C-7 I've just bought).
(3) Carvin California Carved Top (CT-6, etc.). These are hard to try out before you custom-order one, but they do turn up used. They're Carvin's blatant copy of a PRS Custom 22/24, but they're very well-made (and U.S.-made). The couple I've played weighed right between a typical PRS and typical LP -- the territory you're looking for -- so they sound pretty hefty, but don't have the big heel of an LP or SC-/SE-245. You can order these with options that are rare or impossible on production PRSi, like ebony fretboards.
There are many other options -- some of which have been suggested here. But if you like the PRS/Gibson vibe, these really have that vibe. Have fun!
I'd suggest 3 options, ranging between about $500 (for a used guitar + new pickups) up to $1,500:
(1) Buy the PRS whose look and feel most seduce you, then swap pickups. Appropriate pup swaps will definitely make PRSi sound girthier. I own a bunch of PRS SE's -- mostly with replacement pickups, and all with thin mahogany backs (so lighter and more playable than a Les Paul or SC/SE 245), and all signed by Paul. So you might say I'm biased.
My Singlecut Trem SE with Duncan P-Rails, in humbucking mode, sounds darker than a LP. My best-sounding guitar is actually a magically modded Custom 22 SE, which sounds like a good LP -- but its mods are not replicable. The original owner rewound some mysteriously overwound pickups on the original G&B baseplates.
If you're able to A/B a PRS S2 Custom 22 against some LP's, you might find that it's close to what you want. PRS has gradually introduced darker-/warmer-sounding pickups over the last few years. Those pickups are what you might like -- 59/10's, 58/08's, or the S2 #7's on this S2 Custom 22.
On my SE Santana, I've ended up with a PRS S2 #7 neck pup, and a Duncan 59/Custom Hybrid bridge pup. This works (although I think I'd prefer an uncovered 59/10 at the neck -- some day). The 59/Custom Hybrid is truly hybrid: it has good body and a bit of snarl, but also some Alnico 5 woodiness. I wish Duncan made a similar neck pup. (Haven't tried PATBs or Sentients.) What you want to beef up a thin-backed PRS are mids, so DiMarzio would have good options, although I don't know their models well.
What you wouldn't want are refined, PAF-inspired humbuckers from Duncan or Gibson. They all sounded too scrawny on my PRS -- they're voiced for thick-backed Les Pauls. I went through a Duncan Pearly Gates, a Gibson '57 Classic (superb pup), and even two bridge pups at the neck -- Duncan Screamin' Demon and Gibson Super '57. They all sounded too scooped, like single-coil Fender pups. Duncan's '59 and Jazz are renowned for their scooped quality, so they're not advisable.
(2) Schecter C-1 Hellraiser. You can buy a pricey new copy with a passive-pickups option, or just find a used copy for $300-400 and swap on passive pickups. These are actually made in the same Korean factory as PRS SE's, and they're very PRS-like. The build quality and action have been superb on every copy I've played (including the C-7 I've just bought).
(3) Carvin California Carved Top (CT-6, etc.). These are hard to try out before you custom-order one, but they do turn up used. They're Carvin's blatant copy of a PRS Custom 22/24, but they're very well-made (and U.S.-made). The couple I've played weighed right between a typical PRS and typical LP -- the territory you're looking for -- so they sound pretty hefty, but don't have the big heel of an LP or SC-/SE-245. You can order these with options that are rare or impossible on production PRSi, like ebony fretboards.
There are many other options -- some of which have been suggested here. But if you like the PRS/Gibson vibe, these really have that vibe. Have fun!
That90'sGuy
DyzaBoyzologist
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
If you like the feel of PRS, but want a thicker sound, get a McCarty. You want that "throaty" sound? Swap out the subpar pickups with Wolfetone Marshallheads and call it a day. Take this from someone who's owned way too much gear and has gone through a half a dozen PRS.
If you like the feel of PRS, but want a thicker sound, get a McCarty. You want that "throaty" sound? Swap out the subpar pickups with Wolfetone Marshallheads and call it a day. Take this from someone who's owned way too much gear and has gone through a half a dozen PRS.
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Great, these are really helpful suggestions!
- That Ruokangas Duke looks badass, I've never heard of it before, but I'll definitely look into it. I'm moving to a new city soon, and a new job, so I'm willing to pay more for a really good guitar rather than mess around with cheaper ones and constantly upgrade, tweak pickups, sell/buy, etc. (which is what I did until now).
- I've definitely been intrigued by the Schecter Hellraiser and the Carvin CT-6, I guess I just gotta get my hands on a couple to try out! The pickup suggestions for the PRS are also very helpful, since it seems like no matter what I get I'll probably end up swapping the pups (as I did, by the way, on my previous Les Paul; I'm not a fan of any of Gibson's offerings, which is why I came to the SD forums in the first place
!).
- I'm starting to come around more and more to the McCarty. Not sure why I didn't look into it before, I think I assumed that because it looked similar to a C22/24 that it'd sound similar. But from clips I've heard online, it does seem to be thicker/darker, and in terms of aesthetics, it's perfect. Not sure I've seen a guitar whose shape, contour, colors, and overall "vibe" are more perfect for my taste! And that neck looks fantastic. These also are discontinued, right? So I'd have to find one used?
A few videos A/B McCarty's against Les Pauls, and they do sound very similar (at least as far as one can tell from Youtube videos), but I'm not a huge fan of the vintage pickups overall, so the idea of swapping them for something more aggressive is very appealing. I guess I just gotta find a couple to try out, but these are exactly the kinds of guitar adventures that make playing it so much fun!
Great, these are really helpful suggestions!
- That Ruokangas Duke looks badass, I've never heard of it before, but I'll definitely look into it. I'm moving to a new city soon, and a new job, so I'm willing to pay more for a really good guitar rather than mess around with cheaper ones and constantly upgrade, tweak pickups, sell/buy, etc. (which is what I did until now).
- I've definitely been intrigued by the Schecter Hellraiser and the Carvin CT-6, I guess I just gotta get my hands on a couple to try out! The pickup suggestions for the PRS are also very helpful, since it seems like no matter what I get I'll probably end up swapping the pups (as I did, by the way, on my previous Les Paul; I'm not a fan of any of Gibson's offerings, which is why I came to the SD forums in the first place
!).- I'm starting to come around more and more to the McCarty. Not sure why I didn't look into it before, I think I assumed that because it looked similar to a C22/24 that it'd sound similar. But from clips I've heard online, it does seem to be thicker/darker, and in terms of aesthetics, it's perfect. Not sure I've seen a guitar whose shape, contour, colors, and overall "vibe" are more perfect for my taste! And that neck looks fantastic. These also are discontinued, right? So I'd have to find one used?
A few videos A/B McCarty's against Les Pauls, and they do sound very similar (at least as far as one can tell from Youtube videos), but I'm not a huge fan of the vintage pickups overall, so the idea of swapping them for something more aggressive is very appealing. I guess I just gotta find a couple to try out, but these are exactly the kinds of guitar adventures that make playing it so much fun!
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
It's a small-ish company from Finland with a handful of builders. The main builder, Juha Ruokangas himself, is one of the very top builders in Europe and vice president of The European Guitar Builders guild.
What's different about their guitars is that most of them are made from spanish cedar and arctic birch. Very close to mahogany and maple but a little more refined sound. I've played a few and they are second to none. But they are expensive, and now that I checked it, they are very expensive. The Duke starts from 6000 euros (7000 dollars) and up. But you will get alot of guitar for the money. They have an EXCELLENT online guitar builder that you can spec it out and see what it looks like and what it costs. Have a go with that.
They have few dealers in the US so you might be able catch one in the flesh.
But the Carvin CT-6 and PRS singlecuts are excellent guitars also and don't cost as much but they are in a sense mass-produced, not that that is a bad thing. With Ruokangas, and other custom shop builders, you don't have to compromise on anything.
Probably all you really need to do is buy new pickups to a PRS to get it sound more like a Les Paul.
Good luck with the hunt.
It's a small-ish company from Finland with a handful of builders. The main builder, Juha Ruokangas himself, is one of the very top builders in Europe and vice president of The European Guitar Builders guild.
What's different about their guitars is that most of them are made from spanish cedar and arctic birch. Very close to mahogany and maple but a little more refined sound. I've played a few and they are second to none. But they are expensive, and now that I checked it, they are very expensive. The Duke starts from 6000 euros (7000 dollars) and up. But you will get alot of guitar for the money. They have an EXCELLENT online guitar builder that you can spec it out and see what it looks like and what it costs. Have a go with that.
They have few dealers in the US so you might be able catch one in the flesh.
But the Carvin CT-6 and PRS singlecuts are excellent guitars also and don't cost as much but they are in a sense mass-produced, not that that is a bad thing. With Ruokangas, and other custom shop builders, you don't have to compromise on anything.
Probably all you really need to do is buy new pickups to a PRS to get it sound more like a Les Paul.
Good luck with the hunt.
Grasshopper
New member
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
McCarty's are in production, with 58/15 pickups (which I haven't tried). The McCarty's with earlier pickups that I've A/B'ed against LP's sounded thinner, although fatter than Custom 22's/24's.
Try to shop at a good bricks'n'mortar music store, with a wide selection that lets you carefully compare axes to your taste. And, of course, buy there, to keep them in biz.
You might also look at a Schecter Solo 6, an LP-shaped (sort-of) guitar with a smaller heel.
McCarty's are in production, with 58/15 pickups (which I haven't tried). The McCarty's with earlier pickups that I've A/B'ed against LP's sounded thinner, although fatter than Custom 22's/24's.
Try to shop at a good bricks'n'mortar music store, with a wide selection that lets you carefully compare axes to your taste. And, of course, buy there, to keep them in biz.
You might also look at a Schecter Solo 6, an LP-shaped (sort-of) guitar with a smaller heel.
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Oh wow, I did play around with the Ruokangas builder and at first thought it said 700 euros (which is great), but later realized it was 7000...yeah, a little outside my price range. I'd be willing to spend a couple grand, maybe up to 3 max if it's a really exceptional guitar, but $7000+ is a little too rich for my tastes. The online builder is pretty awesome though, and the guitars look beautiful...
At the moment the McCarty looks really promising! Especially with a pickup swap to make it more aggressive. Definitely thicker than the 22's/24's, but has that sleek look and fast neck (at least I assume so from its appearance, and what everyone says about them) that I love from the other PRS's.
I was unable to find new McCarty's at any of the big online guitar dealers (Guitar Center, Sam Ash, Musicians Friend), and can only find used ones (e.g. on eBay). That being said, there are some beautiful ones selling for around $1,500 and I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and then just re-sell it if it doesn't work, since I can get most if not all of the money back.
If anyone has a good place where I can try them out, let me know! I'm in Chicago for the next few days, followed by Boston for a couple weeks, and then moving to Phoenix, so I could try stores in any of those locations. Ideally I would indeed want to test drive the guitar, but if I had to buy one "blind" and hope it works, the McCarty seems ideal based on all the suggestions, my experience with other LP's or PRS's, and a wide selection of Youtube clips that give at least a general idea of its tonal palette!
Oh wow, I did play around with the Ruokangas builder and at first thought it said 700 euros (which is great), but later realized it was 7000...yeah, a little outside my price range
. I'd be willing to spend a couple grand, maybe up to 3 max if it's a really exceptional guitar, but $7000+ is a little too rich for my tastes. The online builder is pretty awesome though, and the guitars look beautiful...At the moment the McCarty looks really promising! Especially with a pickup swap to make it more aggressive. Definitely thicker than the 22's/24's, but has that sleek look and fast neck (at least I assume so from its appearance, and what everyone says about them) that I love from the other PRS's.
I was unable to find new McCarty's at any of the big online guitar dealers (Guitar Center, Sam Ash, Musicians Friend), and can only find used ones (e.g. on eBay). That being said, there are some beautiful ones selling for around $1,500 and I'm very tempted to pull the trigger and then just re-sell it if it doesn't work, since I can get most if not all of the money back.
If anyone has a good place where I can try them out, let me know! I'm in Chicago for the next few days, followed by Boston for a couple weeks, and then moving to Phoenix, so I could try stores in any of those locations. Ideally I would indeed want to test drive the guitar, but if I had to buy one "blind" and hope it works, the McCarty seems ideal based on all the suggestions, my experience with other LP's or PRS's, and a wide selection of Youtube clips that give at least a general idea of its tonal palette!
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
^^^ This is the answer to your question. Ted McCarty was the President of Gibson during their glory years, and was a consultant to PRS in his retirement years. Many feel that the McCarty model is essentially the Gibson model that never was. He fixed a bunch of things that players didn't like about the Custom 24/22, such as a fatter body and neck, thicker neck heel, increased headstock angle, stop tail, and Kluson style tuners that allow the headstock to resonate better.
The stock pickups are sort of like Duncan 59's, but not as tight. If you install some Duncans that are to your liking, you'll find that the McCarty is possibly better sounding than most stock LP's.
So you know, I've owned over 15 high end Gibsons, and 6 various models from PRS. The McCarty model is my favorite from PRS. My two have C5/59 and 50th Ann. Seth Lovers.
^^^ This is the answer to your question. Ted McCarty was the President of Gibson during their glory years, and was a consultant to PRS in his retirement years. Many feel that the McCarty model is essentially the Gibson model that never was. He fixed a bunch of things that players didn't like about the Custom 24/22, such as a fatter body and neck, thicker neck heel, increased headstock angle, stop tail, and Kluson style tuners that allow the headstock to resonate better.
The stock pickups are sort of like Duncan 59's, but not as tight. If you install some Duncans that are to your liking, you'll find that the McCarty is possibly better sounding than most stock LP's.
So you know, I've owned over 15 high end Gibsons, and 6 various models from PRS. The McCarty model is my favorite from PRS. My two have C5/59 and 50th Ann. Seth Lovers.
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Great, thanks for all that info! And if I can't find one in a bricks-and-mortar store, t seems pretty "safe" to buy a PRS online it (as safe as possible, anyways), since I've read often that they're consistently good. I really appreciate the pickup suggestions as well, the C5 seems great for pushing into harder territory...
Great, thanks for all that info! And if I can't find one in a bricks-and-mortar store, t seems pretty "safe" to buy a PRS online it (as safe as possible, anyways), since I've read often that they're consistently good. I really appreciate the pickup suggestions as well, the C5 seems great for pushing into harder territory...
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Hadn't heard the term "McRosie" before, but it's a McCarty with a rosewood neck (instead of mahogany), right? What's the difference tonally? And I found a few used ones in the range of $1.5-1.8k, I am very close to going for it! Any years that are better/worse?
Thanks again for the help everyone, it's been super useful!
Hadn't heard the term "McRosie" before, but it's a McCarty with a rosewood neck (instead of mahogany), right? What's the difference tonally? And I found a few used ones in the range of $1.5-1.8k, I am very close to going for it! Any years that are better/worse?
Thanks again for the help everyone, it's been super useful!
d1dsj
Cornographer
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Yeah it's a Rosewood neck McCarty. I have a rosewood necked PRS and to be honest I haven't ever done any side by side comparisons. I will say that the rosewood Has great sustain but it does have its own unique tone. To my ears it has a really middy, honky tone with excellent string definition... The only other guitar I've had that has these qualities was a '92 Gibson Pre Historic series '59 LP. Unfortunately that was sold off many years ago but the PRS is staying. If a rosewood neck is not your thing no matter, I'm sure a normal Mac will be awesome and there was a limited run of Brazillian board kicking around too.
Yeah it's a Rosewood neck McCarty. I have a rosewood necked PRS and to be honest I haven't ever done any side by side comparisons. I will say that the rosewood Has great sustain but it does have its own unique tone. To my ears it has a really middy, honky tone with excellent string definition... The only other guitar I've had that has these qualities was a '92 Gibson Pre Historic series '59 LP. Unfortunately that was sold off many years ago but the PRS is staying. If a rosewood neck is not your thing no matter, I'm sure a normal Mac will be awesome and there was a limited run of Brazillian board kicking around too.
Grasshopper
New member
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
PRS has evidently "reintroduced" the McCarty for 2015. This might be recent enough that the actual guitars are not yet in the retail pipeline:
http://www.prsguitars.com/mccarty/
The new incarnation has new pickups (which might be a good thing), and fretboard binding (which will please more Gibson fans than PRS fans).
If the McCarty is your leading candidate, you should also check out the PRS DGT. It has similar body specs (it's based on the McCarty), but David Grissom-specified pickups that are widely considered to be among PRS' best-ever pups. These are nicely rock-oriented pickups, and PRS has never sold them separately from the DGT guitar.
This might be all you need. You don't need to use the tremolo, but its separate saddle adjustments will make it easier to tweak the guitar's setup. DGT's are available used, at reasonable prices, and will retain a value close to what you pay for them.
If you can't find an indy music store, just go to a GC. They all stock lots of LP models, and usually a decent selection of new and used PRSi.
PRS has evidently "reintroduced" the McCarty for 2015. This might be recent enough that the actual guitars are not yet in the retail pipeline:
http://www.prsguitars.com/mccarty/
The new incarnation has new pickups (which might be a good thing), and fretboard binding (which will please more Gibson fans than PRS fans).
If the McCarty is your leading candidate, you should also check out the PRS DGT. It has similar body specs (it's based on the McCarty), but David Grissom-specified pickups that are widely considered to be among PRS' best-ever pups. These are nicely rock-oriented pickups, and PRS has never sold them separately from the DGT guitar.
This might be all you need. You don't need to use the tremolo, but its separate saddle adjustments will make it easier to tweak the guitar's setup. DGT's are available used, at reasonable prices, and will retain a value close to what you pay for them.
If you can't find an indy music store, just go to a GC. They all stock lots of LP models, and usually a decent selection of new and used PRSi.
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
And for a rather different alternative:
http://www.andersonguitars.com/product_information/models/cobra_family/cobra_over.cfm
And for a rather different alternative:
http://www.andersonguitars.com/product_information/models/cobra_family/cobra_over.cfm
stevie_bees
Cat In The Hatministrator
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere the other day that they were bringing back the McCarty. It might just be an anniversary special run or something.
I love my McCarty and it gives me enough girth and roar when needed through the WLH pickups, and sounds great when they're split too.
I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere the other day that they were bringing back the McCarty. It might just be an anniversary special run or something.
I love my McCarty and it gives me enough girth and roar when needed through the WLH pickups, and sounds great when they're split too.
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Thanks everyone! I made the decision, and bought a used 2004 McCarty off eBay. It sounds like this is the best guitar for what I want, and if it turns out not to fit the bill then I can always sell it without much if any of a loss.
Those new McCarty's look amazing, but they'll probably cost upwards of $3k right? And this way I don't have to wait until they come out to try them.
Now on to find the right pickups for it, but I'll leave that for another thread in the SD pickup forum!
Thanks everyone! I made the decision, and bought a used 2004 McCarty off eBay. It sounds like this is the best guitar for what I want, and if it turns out not to fit the bill then I can always sell it without much if any of a loss.
Those new McCarty's look amazing, but they'll probably cost upwards of $3k right? And this way I don't have to wait until they come out to try them
.Now on to find the right pickups for it, but I'll leave that for another thread in the SD pickup forum!
stevie_bees
Cat In The Hatministrator
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
http://www.prsguitars.com/mccarty/
There you go Don! Do you need one to sit alongside your Modern Eagle?
http://www.prsguitars.com/mccarty/
There you go Don! Do you need one to sit alongside your Modern Eagle?
d1dsj
Cornographer
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
Oooooo... Nice Stevie! As sweet as it is I actually prefer the unbound board, but that colour is ace.... Looks like a PS model. Ref the ME, it is essentially just a McRosie anyway. I really like the colour of yours and I'll bet it sounds superb with the WLHs.
Oooooo... Nice Stevie! As sweet as it is I actually prefer the unbound board, but that colour is ace.... Looks like a PS model. Ref the ME, it is essentially just a McRosie anyway. I really like the colour of yours and I'll bet it sounds superb with the WLHs.
stevie_bees
Cat In The Hatministrator
Re: Guitar halfway between PRS and Les Paul?
I prefer the unbound board too, just feels so comfortable in my hand. It does certainly rock with the WLHs!
I prefer the unbound board too, just feels so comfortable in my hand. It does certainly rock with the WLHs!
