Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

[Chickenwings]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

yeah. It is ALWAYS the guitarist's fault.
Same old same old stereotypes.
This information is old news for anyone who has played more than one gig in their lifetime.
I play with my amp on the floor sometimes with tilt backs and sometimes not.
I am a guitarist (like everyone here) so i may seem biased, but i also sing in various contexts from solo acoustic to a jazz combo to a rockabilly outfit to a 7 piece swing band.
I never have problems hearing myself sing.
Some singers no matter what the band always ask for more foldback. Even some who are singing solo, or accompanying themselves. The author does not once mention mic technique or voice production.
Some bassists are just too loud.
Same as drummers. Thing with drummers tho, is that there is no master volume control. Drummers volume is controlled by their hands, and they inevitable tend to hit a little harder when they want more of themselves in the mix.
Some keyboard players monitor amps are too loud.
It is everybody in the band's responsibility to ensure onstage volumes are working well.
The author has only identified one aspect of what it is to work in a band and decided in his wisdom that the guitarist is always the root of the problem.
Professional musicians work together. They do not point the finger, or look for someone to blame.
The fact is that nobody in the band hears themselves as clearly as they are used to when practicing at home. Professional musicians learn to work with that and find ways of getting used to a "mixed" sound.

 

[dave74]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

I've always just folded/rolled a large towel to a couple inches thick and placed it under the front edge/feet of the cab.
Simple, cheap, kind of splits the difference on angle, and IMO sounds better because it's still on/near the floor.
Probably not a good idea with a head on top of cab pairing lol, but with a cab only you can get some good angle (especially if it's a 14-15" deep cab.).
If the cab has small-size castors you can just remove the back wheels.

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Specifically for the issue of very directional high frequencies - that's one of the reasons why I like open back cabinets. The sound really changes depending on where the amp is placed in the room, and it's easier to hear on stage.

 

[Matt42]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

yeah. It is ALWAYS the guitarist's fault.
Same old same old stereotypes.
This information is old news for anyone who has played more than one gig in their lifetime.
I play with my amp on the floor sometimes with tilt backs and sometimes not.
I am a guitarist (like everyone here) so i may seem biased, but i also sing in various contexts from solo acoustic to a jazz combo to a rockabilly outfit to a 7 piece swing band.
I never have problems hearing myself sing.
Some singers no matter what the band always ask for more foldback. Even some who are singing solo, or accompanying themselves. The author does not once mention mic technique or voice production.
Some bassists are just too loud.
Same as drummers. Thing with drummers tho, is that there is no master volume control. Drummers volume is controlled by their hands, and they inevitable tend to hit a little harder when they want more of themselves in the mix.
Some keyboard players monitor amps are too loud.
It is everybody in the band's responsibility to ensure onstage volumes are working well.
The author has only identified one aspect of what it is to work in a band and decided in his wisdom that the guitarist is always the root of the problem.
Professional musicians work together. They do not point the finger, or look for someone to blame.
The fact is that nobody in the band hears themselves as clearly as they are used to when practicing at home. Professional musicians learn to work with that and find ways of getting used to a "mixed" sound.

It's totally everyone's responsibility to manage their sound appropriately. I've been fortunate in being able to train most of the guys I've played with over the years. When we picked up a 2nd guitar player last year, the first show was pretty painful. His volume was waaaay too loud, and he didn't really know all of our songs that well yet. Fortunately I worked with him after that gig and got him in line with the rest of the band volume wise. I used to play with a drummer who was too quiet. We were constantly telling him to hit the kick harder! That was a pretty surreal experience, honestly.

It takes focused attention sometimes.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

It would be great if we all lived in this magical, ideal, super-pro magazine world in which adequate P.A.'s, full miking, and proficient sound engineers were a given at every music venue! Then the writer's advice might be worth something to your average Joe Musician.

For those of us who gig in the real world, with ****ty PAs, partial or no miking, and sound engineers who 95% of the time range from asleep to barely competent, all a tilt-back amp stand is going to do is give us is a different way of making the guitar sound different to us than it does to the audience. On the floor, ya don't hear how loud and trebly it is, so it ends up too loud and too bright to the audience (the problem described by the author of the article). Tilted back, the problem is exactly reversed. You hear the center of the speaker, full volume and full treble. They hear the edges of the speaker, less volume and less treble. So no matter which way you slice it (floor or tilt-back stand), the tone and volume you think you have are not the tone and volume that the audience hear.

IME, what you want to do if you, like at almost every gig in the real world, are under PA'd, under-mic'd, and have an ineffective sound engineer, is have the amp positioned straight up (i.e. not tilted) at a height that is at the average height between your ear level and the ear level of the audience, and as far back on the stage as possible. And your monitors, if there are any, should be nothing but the house mix piped right back at you. That is your best hope for getting what you hear onstage to be at least somewhat similar to what the audience is hearing.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Some bassists are just too loud.
Same as drummers. Thing with drummers tho, is that there is no master volume control. Drummers volume is controlled by their hands, and they inevitable tend to hit a little harder when they want more of themselves in the mix. Some keyboard players monitor amps are too loud.

It is everybody in the band's responsibility to ensure onstage volumes are working well.
The fact is that nobody in the band hears themselves as clearly as they are used to when practicing at home. Professional musicians learn to work with that and find ways of getting used to a "mixed" sound.

+1. Certainly not just the guitarists. When I go out to see local bands, it's common for the levels to be off, sometimes way off. I'll talk to them on break: 'The bass is drowning out everyone else', or 'There's 6 of you, but out front we can only hear 3', or 'You didn't need to bring that guy, because no one can hear him', etc. Having a 'sound guy' isn't a guarantee that they'll get it right, or even close. At some venues he's on the side instead of out front, and apparently just guessing at levels. EQ's are another area where things can go astray, where several instruments are fighting it out in the high end, or jumbled up together in the midrange.

Like you said, the drummer's volume is in his hands, and that changes constantly. There's a tendency for some of them to play louder the later it gets, and the rest of the band raises theirs to keep up. An arm's war. By then the audience can no longer carry on conversations, and are reduced to shouting a few occasional words in someone else's ear.

 

[Securb]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

To the general problem: venues often bring a lot of these kinds of problems on themselves by forcing musicians to play on tiny stages.

and 99% of venues were never intended to be live music venues. Most have hard surfaces like mirrors, horrible designs, low ceilings, the list goes on and on.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Most have hard surfaces like mirrors, horrible designs, low ceilings, the list goes on and on.

Kill me now.
These kinds of places even get too loud with no music playing at all because the punters start shouting to hear each other talk.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Kill them all...leave no one alive...kill them with Marshalls...Hiwatts...Oranges and so on.....KIIILLLLL!!!!

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Some people just don't like loud music period. You will always be too loud for that type no matter what you do. It is really too much to expect to be able talk over a live band. I like loud music and any music featuring drums and electric guitar is going to be loud. It's supposed be loud. What is too loud? I like to hear the guitar just starting to push the boundary of comfort, but not getting too uncomfortable.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

What is too loud?

When people can't talk and hear each other, and waitresses can't hear to take orders. That's too loud. Some bands seem to think that everyone in the building has to be completely focused on them the entire night. People come to socialize, talk, laugh, drink, have fun, and watch the band part of the time.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

I just don't use an amp.
However, if I do, I have it in front of me, like a stage monitor on a stand (facing me). I get a better mix out front, feedback on demand, and it doesn't have to be loud.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

I have (the amp) in front of me, like a stage monitor on a stand (facing me). I get a better mix out front, feedback on demand, and it doesn't have to be loud.

:smack:
Okay, I feel really dumb... now WHY haven't I thought of that before? Next gig is about a week-and-a-half out and I may just give that a try! :fing2:

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

When people can't talk and hear each other, and waitresses can't hear to take orders. That's too loud. Some bands seem to think that everyone in the building has to be completely focused on them the entire night. People come to socialize, talk, laugh, drink, have fun, and watch the band part of the time.

Okay, makes sense, but we can't be talking about a TV or juke box level for a live band. Even with brushes acoustic drums are way louder than that level.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Okay, makes sense, but we can't be talking about a TV or juke box level for a live band. Even with brushes acoustic drums are way louder than that level.

Definitely not juke box level, too low. I think a band needs a decent volume to get cooking, I like to 'feel' the sound, but when a band is blasting out the patrons with mediocre renditions of overplayed songs, I don't see the point in hanging around. There's volume range that's good: loud but not painful and punishing.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

. There's volume range that's good: loud but not painful and punishing.

Agreed.

 

[Matt42]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Agreed.

Exactly!

 

[ErikH]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Our drummer has an electronic kit. Sound guys at festivals love us. Set up, plug in, he adjusts a few things and go. We set our amp levels at a nice monitor level and let the PA do the rest. When we use our sound system, same thing. We've yet to have any manager tell us we were too loud. In fact, at one place, we were asked to turn it up.

This is the stand I use: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RS7500
I have a mic boom on it too. Works great.

I also have a stand like the OP posted but haven't used that one in a long time.

In the event that I don't have my amp stand, I carry a couple of large door stops as a last resort. Not huge amount of tilt but enough depending on placement.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Our drummer has an electronic kit. Sound guys at festivals love us. Set up, plug in, he adjusts a few things and go. We set our amp levels at a nice monitor level and let the PA do the rest. When we use our sound system, same thing. We've yet to have any manager tell us we were too loud. In fact, at one place, we were asked to turn it up.

Nice! :fing2:

Kinda hard to find drummers who are willing to get away from acoustic drums, though...

 

[chadd]

Re: Guitarists: Stop hurting the audience at small gigs

Instead of using a stand, I use a 4x12 slant cabinet. The speakers are already elevated, allowing me to play at a lower volume level than 1x12 or horizontal 2x12.