H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

[Benway37]

New to wiring and having trouble finding a wiring diagram for what I'm looking to do:
H S H
split coiled HB's using push/pull volume pots (2)
tone pots for HB (2)
3 way toggle with standard gibson humbucker set up: neck, both, bridge
single coil not selectable on switch, instead always on and controlled using its own volume pot/knob.

basically I'd like the guitar to function like a standard 4 knob, 3 way toggle style gibson or epi humbucker set up (albeit with the aforementioned coil tapping) and I'd like the single coil to essentially be always on with it's only control being the 5th knob/volume pot. I'd appreciate a wiring diagram for this schematic, or perhaps what I require is an explanation as to why this will not work or is a bad idea, but either way, I've had no luck searching the webz for either, so any help is much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

(albeit with the aforementioned coil tapping)

You mean "coil SPLITTING". Big difference.

My first thought is 5 pots (2 p/p) is way too cumbersome to use and not necessary at all! If your two humbuckers are fairly similar, I would use either 1 master or 2 500k vol pots, 1 master tone (p/p to split both humbuckers), and 1 250k vol pot for the middle single coil.

But it would depend a great deal on what pickups you are going to use. Let us know what they are and why you want the setup you mentioned and we can help you better.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

Thanks for reply. Pickups I have are a SD JB for the bridge, a Dimarzio HB that I can't readily identify beyond that its a Dimarzio, and a single coil that I also can't identify. This guitar isn't mine, and when it came to me it had 3 DPDT switches handling all the coil splitting, series/parallel etc. Original owner really doesn't like this set up as it's too much thinking on the fly so my idea was to simplify everything for her by giving her dedicated knobs for all her p/u. The additional tone pots I put in really just because I had plenty of space in the cavity to do so (and bc I personally prefer 4 pot Gibson style setups).

I definitely recognize that this is maybe a bit of overkill or even more control than someone might need, but A) I want her to be able to just grab the corresponding knob for control without thinking, and B) without stepping up to a 5 way blade, this is the only way I can think of that gives her the ability to have all p/u on AND/OR the option to isolate to any single p/u that she might desire with minimal thinking required.

Re: cumbersome
When you say it sounds cumbersome, do you mean from a wiring standpoint or from a playing? From a playing I feel like its just a Gibson/Epi with an extra knob, and from a wiring standpoint, I just wanted to point out that this is a custom body with a custom cavity that is larger than any manufacturers cavity on any of the guitars I own. Plenty of room in cavity for all 6 components.

The reason I'd like separate push/pulls for each HB is so that she can split them separately or together. I have this set up on an SG and much prefer it to the single "master" push/pull that I have on another guitar.

 

[Teleplayer]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

For Fender players, its fairly counter-intuitive to have to "think-on-the-fly" about which pickup you are playing before making a level adjustment. I'm one of the guys that would convert Gibson wiring schemes to use a single master volume control. Probably it depends what you are used to, just like people have preference for one brand of smartphone - which is the one they are using.

For the additional control to blend in the single coil, it will reasonably well if you have a down-stream Master volume control. Then you can use the single-coil adjustment as use a blend-control. The possible downside to using multiple volume controls is there will be increased loading for the pickup's resonant peaks. When volume or blend controls are used at the same time, the extra resistance adds electrical damping so you don't get the same resonance between the pickups as you would if they were connected in parallel using a switch.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

Thanks for that. This isn't a fender (or a fender style set up). It's a custom made body by Jim Surles who is a NorCal builder and honestly, I foresee the owner playing it much more often in just the double HB set up. She has been quite fond of the H-H gibsons I own, so to me that's the "default" of the guitar. The single coil (and to some extent, the ability to coil split) is really more for the option than something I really foresee her utilizing regularly, but nonetheless, I want to wire it for her with that capability (also the body has been routed with single coil in the middle so I don't actually have a choice).

I'm not sure what you mean by "down stream". I'm assuming you mean it should come "after" other components, but I'm not sure what those components would be. Maybe you could explain further or even better, save yourself the time dealing with this noob and perhaps point me to a link explaining the concept? Either way, appreciate the feedback.

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

the last time I saw that many knobs was Uli Jon Roth and his sky guitar which I actually love the wiring concept of. Alright here's how I'd approach it , more than anything just telling about the placement of the push pulls and the best in my opinion way of putting the middle pickup in while retaining a lot of the tones you're after.

les paul volume and tone setup
the tone controls have your coilsplits
the bottom knob is a blend to put the neck pickup in any position
standard 3 way toggle

if it sounds good let me know, while i at least start drawing this out as it's going to take a bit of creativity this is the sky guitar. To achieve this you'd need to do a shopping spree of Arctec, EMG or similar circuits mounted to push pull pots which will work with passive pickups or shove a cheap yet some are surprisingly nice Joyo pedal in a guitar.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)


not sure if this helps but here's a pic of the cavity with the components in place. not being critical, just asking: why push/pull on tone instead of volume pots? My original idea was just to ape what Epiphone is doing with their coil splitting HB guitars (their "pro" line >>> 3 way toggle, 4 pots, push/pulls on both volumes for individual coil splits) and then to just add a volume pot for the single coil that she can blend and/or isolate. It doesn't seem that complicated to me but Dunning-Kruger tells me that there's probably way more variables that I'm unaware of.

ETA: I just grabbed rando pots to put in place for pic, but I have correct 500k and 250k pots for controls.

 

[jeremy]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

i tend to use the volume pot a lot more than the tone pot so i prefer to have the p/p on the tone rather than volume

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

more than anything it's preference I find with volume versus tone, however its your build and i appreciate the photos. Which model of CTS pot is that since I've seen the odd SPST push pull pot which I have no idea why anyone would make or want them.

that is a great idea to make the middle pickup act like a dummy coil my friends got this epiphone that has P90s in it and they snuck a dummy coil in

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

Thanks. Everything I own/play is either a H-H or two big singles (jazzmaster). Have never owned or played a three p/u guitar, but when I approached this build and did the math, it seemed like even a 5 way blade was going to be lacking.

This is the only way (or maybe just the least complicated way IMO) that I could figure out how to have all p/u at once & also to be able to isolate to any single p/u by itself. I have a vintage Teisco with a single coil in the middle and no switches and it's a tone I like a lot, so to me, being able to isolate all the way down to any one of the single coils is very important, and at face value, seems to be why some of these counter-suggestions aren't quite what I'm going for.

ETA: Not sure if this is cool but link to pots here:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071KD6C8B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s05?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00IJKZ120/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s05?ie=UTF8&psc=1

250K pot is Fender.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

les paul volume and tone setup
the tone controls have your coilsplits
the bottom knob is a blend to put the neck pickup in any position
standard 3 way toggle

This is pretty much what I'm looking for except p/p on vol instead of tones, and if the "bottom" or in this case middle knob, was a blend for the single coil that would work regardless of what position the toggle was in.

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

with a 5 way blade it would be able to isolate that middle pickup, however for the most tones absolutely you'd be using a pair of push pull pots to split the coils to get the most tones.

For a basic concept for now this is how I see it , I drew over the knobs for now so we're 100% on the same page. If not what can I change to make it better. I did research on the CTS pots so just placement is all I need and a bit of googling as it's been a while since I've done a blend knob.
View attachment 102490


anyways i'll get back on here in an hour to check in and then I'll get to my photoshop
other mods to check out are
fender greasebucket tone control
torres mid boost and scoop (passive)
there are others you can do with pots , however by the sounds of it your heart is set on the standard 2 volume and tone so i won't change that aspect of things.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

These labels are correct except that this cavity is on the back so neck and bridge (and corresponding tones) are actually flipped. In this image, the left pot is neck and vice versa. Otherwise though, spot on. And man do i appreciate the time and effort.

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

Not a problem I enjoy using photoshop. I approached the blend similar to the 7 way mod. The pickups hot lead goes to the switches common. Yet can be turned off.

The 2 volumes on the humbuckers are decoupled so if you adjust the volume a lot in the middle it'll give you more variety. Many suggest a treble bleed mod with this. I got the idea from a blog on guitar.com when I was searching for ideas for another build a few weeks ago. For more information on decoupled volumes
https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/21106-mod-garage-decouple-your-les-pauls-volume-controls

This is the first wiring concept. Let me know if there is any way I can make it better and for all the angry candy canes who pick measure feel free to add on after reading through 9999 yuletide replies : popworm: I make these diagrams colorful for a reason

View attachment 102492

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

For the original OP scheme, I’d put the middle single on a push/pull volume so I could take it out of circuit and have a normal gibson, then pop it on and blend it whenever as needed.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

oh man, that's an idea i hadn't even considered, and it's not a bad one at all.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

I will sing your praises when they ask me about you, my friend. i will say "oh, shadowfire90? finest kind, indeed."

But really I am grateful. I know this is rather standard currency here and that it happens every day but I appreciate the communal aspect and the sharing of knowledge involved, so I thank you both for the specific diagram and for being just a good ambassador to a new forum user.

I am still about a week away from install so it'll be a minute but when I have her all wired up I'll update with a pic or two of the finished product so you can see what you helped me build.

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

"The pickups hot lead goes to the switches common. Yet can be turned off."

Sorry for double reply but in looking at this a little closer I have a question based on what I think I'm understanding here as it relates to the 3 way switch:
I'm gathering from this that all three p/u will be on in middle position 2 and that going into position 1 or 3 will turn the single coil off. Is that an accurate summary or am i missing something?

 

[shadowfire90]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

I'm glad we could help, anyone who shares the same amount of passion I don't mind writing pages about guitar gear.

to answer your question
in all 3 positions you'd be able to turn just the single coil on. We're achieving this because with every pot at 10 as in fully on in say position 1 where usually on a les paul it's just our bridge we have two independent volumes. So turning the bridge pickup volume completely off we're still getting the single coil. This can be done across the guitars switch positions.

The other advantage fusing a coilsplit the humbuckers can assuming the magnetic and coil polarities are all compatible you'll have hum cancellation out of the single coil assuming it's a standard 2 wire single coil. If so I like this wiring at least on paper more and more.

I haven't done decoupled wiring on my guitars as it's new on my radar and all my guitars are either pointy death metal machines or I usually just do a master volume. However on a few guitar forums I've heard great things about it and I figured if anyone was going to get use out of it, it's this project. Gretsch guitars this happens a lot on. Now the only down side to "decoupling" the volume controls is that the guitar will become darker quicker as you turn the guitar volume down. There are a few ways to combat this such as a treble bleed mod which there is a basic versions where it just uses a small valued capacitor to the kinman style which I've got a diagram provided for.

For treble bleeds one of the best real world examples of the treble bleed is the stewmac video to see if it's worth it. The one they want you to buy on their website is 5$. However it's a simple RC circuit consisting of a
130k 1/4w resistor - go metal film if you do it's a few cents more and usually the 30,50 or 100 of them will last a guitarist a life time it's only a few dollars. Metal film is very accurate. But carbon will do just fine too. Tayda2009 on ebay I recommend.

a 1nf (0.001uf) tone capacitor - as long as it's not ceramic or MLCC.
Your best bet is polyester. It's cheap, handles heat well and 1% vs 10% tolerance (accuracy) of a 1nf capacitor I don't think humans would be able to hear the subtleties in without some form of placebo effect. Any voltage will do as well.

this is a diagram on the best treble bleed I've seen
View attachment 102500

and a video showcasing one

 

[Benway37]

Re: H S H wiring for 3 way toggle and 5 pots (or tell me why this is dumb)

Ah thanks for clarification. I was assuming I was missing something. Yes, this diagram seems perfect for what I'm looking for and I think it will work great. I'll look into the treble mod. It's also funny that you referenced the Gretsch and then a vid with that specific guitar bc I am loosely stealing the vibe of that Electromatic series for this one, at least from an aesthetic standpoint. If your eyes are keen you probably already noticed the silver sparkle.