Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

[Jazzfiend101]

Hello all. I'm playing in a cover band doing mostly modern stuff and a few 80s hits. I'm running an Epiphone Les Paul Custom with JB and Jazz pickups. I have a pair of 1x12 Orange cabs loaded with V30 speakers. I alternate between using an Orange Dark Terror head (15 watts) and a JCM 2000 DSL 50 head.

I'm trying to get a latter day Motörhead guitar tone. I know Phil Campbell uses EMGs which can be pretty ice picky. I understand a lot of people hate the JB, but I like it. Hot output, and screaming harmonics, and I don't have to use a battery.

My issue is getting a good live sound. I can't seem to get rid of the treble in my rig. I've dialed the treble and presence mostly out of my Marshall, with the gain on lead channel one as far up as 7, no more. I've dropped the gain a bit here and there. I'm a notorious Zakk Wylde pinch harmonic guy. I know... lame, but hey... no one else in my town does it and everybody seems to flip out when I whip them out. The Orange I have to run harder and only push the gain to about 3 o'clock. I've heard of backing off the gain, but the problem has been if I back off the gain, bye bye harmonics.

I push all of that into a 535Q wah, an Ibanez Jet Driver (sort of a cheaper tube screamer) a Phase 90 and a boss Super Chorus. When I drive the amps hard there is more of that treble bite and less fullness. When I step on the Jet Drive it's pretty creamy and thick, but there is no volume differential (I can't hear myself bump with volume when I boost).

I'd just like to get a really kick ass Bastards era Motörhead sound and I can't seem to understand why I have over $1000 of gear that I can't make sound good.

I know I'm looking at 50+ comments of throw away the JB, but I've had this problem with three different Les Pauls, one with Pearly Gates and 59s. And if the Orange has its Master volume cranked to about 3/4 it sounds like treble and flab... no bottom end at all. I guess live sound my bass player needs that area... but can't I get a little bass in there tho?

Please help... I'm very disappointed. I don't have much to do except play with this band and work, and it's stressing me out.

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[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

The modulation and wah are adding a lot of high frequency hash to your tone in all all likelihood. Your rig is fine ... you may want to look into either a) changing your pedal order, particularly with the Boss chorus pedal, which is buffered, b) getting a loop switcher so you only have one treble-inducing pedal going at a time or c) adding an EQ to your rig to get the high freqs under control.

You can also try a compressor pedal ... they come in many flavours, and a darker compressor (like the Cali 76 or Pigtronix Philosopher's Tone) may do just what you are looking for -- add some girth/darkness to the overall tone, whilst reigning in the errant high freqs.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Let's not also forget that 'Bastards' has at least 2-3 guitar layers going on at once.

Treble and presence are quite important when it comes to guitar tone, especially live. I see you talk about YOUR sound alot, but how is it interacting with the band?

You could also try putting in a 250k pot instead of the (presumably) 500 that's in there?

 

[JOLLY]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

The vintage 30s aren't helping either.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

I'm assuming the Dark Terror is called that because it has a dark, non-trebly tone? Is your cabinet shouting at your shins, or is it up and angled so you hear it straight-on?

Can't understand how or why you're not getting Marshall/Motorhead tones out of the Marshall, though. Gotta be the speakers, but then again if they're Celestions.....

My JCM800 does Iron Fist and Ace of Spades easily, along with a ton of other early 80s hard rock and heavy metal tones, through Carvin British 12s (Celestion-ish), with more mids than I want, even with a Custom. The JB should be replicating that well enough. Perhaps your High control is wonky? Has it been modded? Perhaps a previous owner used darker pickups (for whatever reason) and had it modified for less treble because he wanted the Marshall image without the Marshall tone?


As was suggested, you can swap the JB's volume pot to a 250K to cut the treble, or maybe a different Tone capacitor, not using No Load or No-effect-on-10 pots, or like TO said - get an EQ pedal.

 

[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Everything is loud. We rehearse at a big venue, on a large stage using the PA they have there, minus monitors. So it's stage volume and it's a band that plays to some backing tracks. I know that's not the coolest thing in the world, but it's money and I need money because debt is real.

The tracks are loud, I can't even hear the other guitarist on the other side of the stage. The drummer isn't what I'd call a loud drummer, but he's loud enough. I hear my tone from 5 feet to the left blowing in the other direction. When I put my face up to the speakers that's when I notice... hey... all treble... itchy itchy ice picky. Like Slash's tone in Appetite... except way less cooler. That's about where we are at sound wise.

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[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

I thought of using an eq or a compressor. But I don't know how to use those or how to apply them. I work at Guitar Center so I have access to a lot of gear... but I don't exactly have a lot of funds to play with. Next to nothing, really, so if I get something then I have to make it work.

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[Funkfingers]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Under what conditions do you set your amplifier controls? Solo or with the full band sound running?

As has already been suggested, your pedal chain may be robbing some of your signal. At rehearsal, try running directly into the amp. Reintroduce pedals individually. Listen out for whether any of them detracts from your sound.

Also, if all that you hear through your loudspeakers is high mids and treble, you need to increase the low mids and bass frequencies.

Speaking of 'speakers, their performance may be dictated to a considerable degree by the cabinet(s) in which they are mounted. Which exact model of Orange cabs do you have? They may be so small that they make the Marshall head sound "boxy". The obvious suggestion would be to run the DSL50 through a Marshall (or close copy) enclosure.

 

[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

I generally set it up with only as much distortion as needed. If it can whip out a Zakk Wylde pinch harmonic then I'm set. After that I add pedals.

For the Marshall the treble is set to 0, presence 0, mids 7, bass, 7, Deep Switch engaged. Gain 7. Volume at half way. I don't know how to get rid of the highs.

For the Orange I push the amp level to just over half way, tone right around 9-11 o'clock and the gain at about 1 o'clock.

I've been learning in the recording studio recently that you don't stick as much distortion while recording as you do in a live gigging situation. Not sure why that is, and it makes me wonder how bands sound heavy in the studio. That being said, I took both of the amps last week, used one guitar, tracked them separately and came out with one really thick, killer sound that reminded me of Dr. Feelgood era Crue. People have been very pleased with that sound. On their own, however, they were too weak for me to even pull harmonics off the low strings.

I have no idea what I'm supposed to do.

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[Demanic]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Everything is loud. We rehearse at a big venue, on a large stage using the PA they have there, minus monitors. So it's stage volume and it's a band that plays to some backing tracks. I know that's not the coolest thing in the world, but it's money and I need money because debt is real.

The tracks are loud, I can't even hear the other guitarist on the other side of the stage. The drummer isn't what I'd call a loud drummer, but he's loud enough. I hear my tone from 5 feet to the left blowing in the other direction. When I put my face up to the speakers that's when I notice... hey... all treble... itchy itchy ice picky. Like Slash's tone in Appetite... except way less cooler. That's about where we are at sound wise.

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Have you asked what the audience is hearing? Could be that those highs are sounding just right.

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[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

I generally set it up with only as much distortion as needed. If it can whip out a Zakk Wylde pinch harmonic then I'm set. After that I add pedals.

Ok so far. This Tubescreamerish pedal, does it have a tone control? What are its tonal characteristics when used as a dirt pedal instead of just boost? If it has Drive, Level, and Tone, try setting the Tone to its lowest point, Level max, and Drive barely on. Tweak the Drive until you get the volume boost you want.
Also, are the pedals in the loop or the front? Swap them around to find the best results with regards to the issue at hand.

For the Marshall the treble is set to 0, presence 0, mids 7, bass, 7, Deep Switch engaged. Gain 7. Volume at half way. I don't know how to get rid of the highs.

What is this "Deep" switch supposed to do? Does the treble situation improve with it off?
If it's a "Mesa-ish" tone shift, that might be a start.

I've been learning in the recording studio recently that you don't stick as much distortion while recording as you do in a live gigging situation. Not sure why that is, and it makes me wonder how bands sound heavy in the studio.

The reason for that is....vvv

I took both of the amps last week, used one guitar, tracked them separately and came out with one really thick, killer sound that reminded me of Dr. Feelgood era Crue.

Layered guitars with moderate gain will stack better and be heavier-toned than a single guitar track with twice as much gain. Everything stacks. This is similar to Phil Spector's "Wall of sound" technique.
Stereo in stereo in stereo will be balls louder than one raging signal source maxed out.

 

[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Have you asked what the audience is hearing? Could be that those highs are sounding just right.

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Actually yes I have had people tell me over the years that I have good tone, but I take that with a grain of salt. You get some drunk dude coming up to pat you on the back and tell you that you sounded awesome and you're like "okay man I totally botched Sweet Child, don't play with me"... or some guy talks and talks about Marshall this, Orange that, gotta have that "tube tone" and you're like dude did you come out here to have a good time or stare at gear?

I'm very sensitive about my sound. Fortunately I do have audio from the soundboard of a nice venue we played and my tone was just very on point. It was like a mix of Randy Rhoads tribute meets Motörhead and I was having a really good night, not trying to brag, but it was a great memory for me and nice to have it on audio. Also I've enjoyed the Facebook videos and Instagram videos of rehearsals and of live shows.

But this past practice yesterday my sound was terrible and I don't know why... I didn't do anything different! And I'm not sure what that means

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[Demanic]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Dude, don't kill yourself over it, it could have been any number of things.

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[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Ok so far. This Tubescreamerish pedal, does it have a tone control? What are its tonal characteristics when used as a dirt pedal instead of just boost? If it has Drive, Level, and Tone, try setting the Tone to its lowest point, Level max, and Drive barely on. Tweak the Drive until you get the volume boost you want.
Also, are the pedals in the loop or the front? Swap them around to find the best results with regards to the issue at hand.




What is this "Deep" switch supposed to do? Does the treble situation improve with it off?
If it's a "Mesa-ish" tone shift, that might be a start.




The reason for that is....vvv



Layered guitars with moderate gain will stack better and be heavier-toned than a single guitar track with twice as much gain. Everything stacks. This is similar to Phil Spector's "Wall of sound" technique.
Stereo in stereo in stereo will be balls louder than one raging signal source maxed out.

The Jet Drive is basically a TS9 with a Mids knob. By itself it is an alright overdrive. But if the mids go up past halfway it gets boxy. I've had success using the Green Channel on a JCM2000 DSL50 with the Jet Drive engaged to have some pretty slick sounds. I've always thought of buying a boost pedal to get a lead tone.

The Deep Switch is like a doubling of the bass. I tried it with this new group and it only furthered blackening me out of the on stage sound. That Mesa mid scoop setting you are referring to is actually similar to the Marshall's Tone Shift. I avoid that button at all costs. May have pressed it twice in my life. It's like a volume drop.

Of course maybe I could use it to decrease the volume via EQ, then drive the amp's level a bit harder to push the tubes... maybe that would work?

All pedals are before the amps.

The ideal set up for my sound is to be very simple. No need for a footswitch clean sound or solo. I generally like to set it up to nearly solo tone, and then use the pedals to push it further when it's time to solo. Since I have a Jazz pickup in the neck I've never had an issue rolling off the volume to get a clear sound, occasionally using chorus or phase 90 to add character to it. Surprisingly both amps give me great clean tones when they are heavily overdriven.

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[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Everything is loud. We rehearse at a big venue, on a large stage using the PA they have there, minus monitors. So it's stage volume and it's a band that plays to some backing tracks.
The tracks are loud, I can't even hear the other guitarist on the other side of the stage.

Lot's of issues here right off the bat. Rehearsing in an empty venue? Going to sound much different when it's filled.
Rehearsing without monitors in a venue setting? no wonder you guys have to push so loud

When I put my face up to the speakers that's when I notice... hey... all treble... itchy itchy ice picky.

Well no ****...

 

[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

I'm gonna have to have a word with everyone next practice about getting us set up for better sound. The drummer just bought a new Pearl kit, it sounds like crap. The other guitarist has a Vox tube amp. It sounds like crap. I used both of my amps and they sound like crap. Vocals aren't cutting through. The bass is there but it's like... just mud in the distance.

Agh, there are a lot of issues yes. It was supposed to be a fun new thing. We are doing something not many have done before. It's a visual performance that's backed up by a band. The idea being have backing tracks for songs that contain synths, lots of vocals, and loops. There is a raw aspect to it, but it's also very polished and professional. The idea was to use 3D mapping onto a green-screened stage and make these crazy kaleidoscopic visuals to add to the music. We see a hundred DJs doing it and we thought, why not have a real band do that. It's basically money. But there are so many ways people can deride that. And it will come 99% from the musicians, not the average venue visitor. And if I can't dial in a good guitar sound to start with, well... not good.

So I know my answer isn't buying a Gibson, or maybe not buying a new amp. But I may need to look into the compressor and EQ side. Xotica makes a Compressor/Boost pedal that takes up little real estate on the board. And MXR's 10 band EQ seems to be popular amongst the staff. Any suggestions how to use these?

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[Jazzfiend101]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

Under what conditions do you set your amplifier controls? Solo or with the full band sound running?

As has already been suggested, your pedal chain may be robbing some of your signal. At rehearsal, try running directly into the amp. Reintroduce pedals individually. Listen out for whether any of them detracts from your sound.

Also, if all that you hear through your loudspeakers is high mids and treble, you need to increase the low mids and bass frequencies.

Speaking of 'speakers, their performance may be dictated to a considerable degree by the cabinet(s) in which they are mounted. Which exact model of Orange cabs do you have? They may be so small that they make the Marshall head sound "boxy". The obvious suggestion would be to run the DSL50 through a Marshall (or close copy) enclosure.

I'm using two 1x12 Orange PPC12 amps with Celestion Vintage 30s. Using one of those speakers in our studio environment is loud as heck, but on stage it's nothing. So I have a second one that I stack (mini stack of Orangeness). I've heard people rail against using 1x12s in love settings, told me to get a 2x12, but I got a good deal on the two of the little boxes, so I figured to stack them. It looks cool, and it's sounded good before in other settings.

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[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Having a really hard time dialing in a good live sound

If I'm not mistaken, running 2 1x12s is not the same as running 1 2x12, specifically something to do with the impedance. In a 2x12, you've got the full output of the amp going to both speakers, which may be both 8 Ohm jumped down to 4 Ohm, or two 16 Ohm jumped down to 8 Ohm. With two 1x12s at 8 Ohms each, you're running 8 Ohms out of one speaker jack of the amp and another 8 Ohms of the same signal out of the other speaker jack of the amp, and somewhere in there is some whacked out formula that says it's not 16 Ohms, but 8 Ohms x 2, which is not going to yield the same volume level (somehow, I dunno, could be tin-foil-hat territory, could be the aspartame overdose, could be science, could be fiction, but I read it once somewhere a long time ago in a forum post far, far away).