Help from any computer gurus out there
- Thread starter SabbathFan0220
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SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
I just tried both the USB 2 ports and the USB 3 ports, and got the same crash on both. If there is a problem with the ports, switching which port I used didn't change anything.
I just tried both the USB 2 ports and the USB 3 ports, and got the same crash on both. If there is a problem with the ports, switching which port I used didn't change anything.
briggleman
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
OK, I have read your troubleshooting so far and I think you need a different approach to this.
Lets look at the entire thread and I see one thing that bothers me: The trouble did not start until you added a second hard drive for backups.
This leads me down this path
OWER ISSUES
First, disconnect the 2nd hard drive and see if the problem still occurs, I did not read every thread so if you have done this, great.
Second, a new power supply. Get a 750 or better (I like corsair, antec, and Thermaltake) and along this same line of thinking, make sure you are plugged into a good source of power, so I recommend an APC Battery Backup with power regulation, no brown outs, or surges, just good clean power.
Now, other common trouble shooting tips.... swap memory slots, move your chips from one slot to another and see if the BSOD occurs sooner or later.
I think its a power issue.
OK, I have read your troubleshooting so far and I think you need a different approach to this.
Lets look at the entire thread and I see one thing that bothers me: The trouble did not start until you added a second hard drive for backups.
This leads me down this path
OWER ISSUESFirst, disconnect the 2nd hard drive and see if the problem still occurs, I did not read every thread so if you have done this, great.
Second, a new power supply. Get a 750 or better (I like corsair, antec, and Thermaltake) and along this same line of thinking, make sure you are plugged into a good source of power, so I recommend an APC Battery Backup with power regulation, no brown outs, or surges, just good clean power.
Now, other common trouble shooting tips.... swap memory slots, move your chips from one slot to another and see if the BSOD occurs sooner or later.
I think its a power issue.
SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
briggleman, thanks for joining in. That's a new idea. Actually, the problem started when I added a THIRD hard drive. The first drive runs the OS, the second drive gets the audio files written to it, and the third is for backup. Someone told me the best way to record music was to save the audio to a different drive than your primary OS drive, so I started with two right off the bat. The only thing that has me skeptical about this is the fact that the third drive isn't active during my recording/editing, so I don't think it's using power during the crashes. But, for the sake of being thorough, I'll unplug it and do some test work using only the original two. I'll post the results and we'll go from there.
Another thing to note about the new drive, just in case it's relevant, is that it plugs into a different place on the motherboard. The MB has two 6 GB/S SATA slots for the primary drives, and six 3 GB/S for any additional drives. So my first two hard drives are connected at 6 GB/S and the new, third hard drive is connected at 3 GB/S. That's probably irrelevant but...now you know, just in case.
Right now my PSU is 550W...do you think that's insufficient for three hard drives?
uOpt, we did talk about the audio interface power supply as well. The old interface (M-Audio) was USB bus powered, which you thought might be causing problems. The new interface (Tascam) is powered by its own AC adapter, so it should be good to go.
briggleman, thanks for joining in. That's a new idea. Actually, the problem started when I added a THIRD hard drive. The first drive runs the OS, the second drive gets the audio files written to it, and the third is for backup. Someone told me the best way to record music was to save the audio to a different drive than your primary OS drive, so I started with two right off the bat. The only thing that has me skeptical about this is the fact that the third drive isn't active during my recording/editing, so I don't think it's using power during the crashes. But, for the sake of being thorough, I'll unplug it and do some test work using only the original two. I'll post the results and we'll go from there.
Another thing to note about the new drive, just in case it's relevant, is that it plugs into a different place on the motherboard. The MB has two 6 GB/S SATA slots for the primary drives, and six 3 GB/S for any additional drives. So my first two hard drives are connected at 6 GB/S and the new, third hard drive is connected at 3 GB/S. That's probably irrelevant but...now you know, just in case.
Right now my PSU is 550W...do you think that's insufficient for three hard drives?
uOpt, we did talk about the audio interface power supply as well. The old interface (M-Audio) was USB bus powered, which you thought might be causing problems. The new interface (Tascam) is powered by its own AC adapter, so it should be good to go.
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uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
If your machine survived mprime on all cores (simultaneously) then it is unlikely to have a PSU problem. Of course the wattage says nothing without vendor/brand/model, it's a fantasy number.
At this point I would try some other OS than a 64 bit vista/win7. You can't rule out somebody fatfingered the 64 bit drivers for the particular usage pattern here.
But then I would have done that in the first place
Might also be worth to hammer your disk(s) to see whether you maybe have a bad southbridge. I had a few Asus boards that would hang on heavy disk I/O due to one.
If your machine survived mprime on all cores (simultaneously) then it is unlikely to have a PSU problem. Of course the wattage says nothing without vendor/brand/model, it's a fantasy number.
At this point I would try some other OS than a 64 bit vista/win7. You can't rule out somebody fatfingered the 64 bit drivers for the particular usage pattern here.
But then I would have done that in the first place
Might also be worth to hammer your disk(s) to see whether you maybe have a bad southbridge. I had a few Asus boards that would hang on heavy disk I/O due to one.
SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
Okay, well I unplugged the third drive (both power and SATA) and was unable to get the system to crash. Whatever is causing the crash has something to do with that third drive being plugged in.
uOpt, what do you mean "fatfingered the drivers"?
Okay, well I unplugged the third drive (both power and SATA) and was unable to get the system to crash. Whatever is causing the crash has something to do with that third drive being plugged in.
uOpt, what do you mean "fatfingered the drivers"?
GoldenVulture
Braindeadologist
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
Is there a back up/Auto save setting in your recording software that can be set to how often it saves/backs up and where to? If so and it's kicking in at short periods it may be interfering. If it's set to back/save to the third drive it may be interfering because of the difference in Data transfer rates of the first two drives and the third.
I'd say you Power Supply is sufficient.
Is there a back up/Auto save setting in your recording software that can be set to how often it saves/backs up and where to? If so and it's kicking in at short periods it may be interfering. If it's set to back/save to the third drive it may be interfering because of the difference in Data transfer rates of the first two drives and the third.
I'd say you Power Supply is sufficient.
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briggleman
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
OK, I think we are getting closer to the issue.
One thing you should know. Your particular Power supply for the computer is not certified for the video card you are using. I know the minimum is 400 watts but the lowest certification is 500 watts ( your 550 in not certified for that video card due to its amp output) and that is cutting it close.
Also the other members are also on to something with the different throughput of the sata connections. You may be better off with an external USB hard drive for backup.
Leave the 3rd drive unhooked for now for additional testing. If your system seems stable, buy a hard drive enclosure for your 3rd drive that uses USB for an interface and go with that for backups.
Hope we are on the right track.
Brad
OK, I think we are getting closer to the issue.
One thing you should know. Your particular Power supply for the computer is not certified for the video card you are using. I know the minimum is 400 watts but the lowest certification is 500 watts ( your 550 in not certified for that video card due to its amp output) and that is cutting it close.
Also the other members are also on to something with the different throughput of the sata connections. You may be better off with an external USB hard drive for backup.
Leave the 3rd drive unhooked for now for additional testing. If your system seems stable, buy a hard drive enclosure for your 3rd drive that uses USB for an interface and go with that for backups.
Hope we are on the right track.
Brad
SabbathFan0220
New member
SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
I'm using Reaper, and there is a function that saves a backup copy each time I save a new one. In other words, I always have one previous version of the project to fall back on, but all of this takes place on the second drive.
What difference does it make if the third drive is hooked up via SATA or USB?
I'm using Reaper, and there is a function that saves a backup copy each time I save a new one. In other words, I always have one previous version of the project to fall back on, but all of this takes place on the second drive.
What difference does it make if the third drive is hooked up via SATA or USB?
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uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
But he isn't using the video card in 3D mode at the time of the crash. That makes this a non-issue.
This doesn't rule out a broken PSU, but I think the remote debugging probably came to an end. The single components which haven't been exchanged are:
1) all tests with the same 64 vista drivers
2) motherboard, and a possibility that the PSU doesn't do
There is also a possibility that these two different USB card actually use the same chips inside, and have broken drivers or suck.
But he isn't using the video card in 3D mode at the time of the crash. That makes this a non-issue.
This doesn't rule out a broken PSU, but I think the remote debugging probably came to an end. The single components which haven't been exchanged are:
1) all tests with the same 64 vista drivers
2) motherboard, and a possibility that the PSU doesn't do
There is also a possibility that these two different USB card actually use the same chips inside, and have broken drivers or suck.
James Rock
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
Maybe unrelated question but have you tried with any other DAWs or any other audio Application?
Maybe unrelated question but have you tried with any other DAWs or any other audio Application?
briggleman
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
I am sorry I was not clear.... there would be little difference if you used a USB powered drive, however, my thoughts are along the larger self enclosed external USB drives that have an external power supply. That way you are not using the internal Power supply to power this device. I use these all the time for my backups and additional storage. I also use the portable drives that run off of USB power but not for mission critical data. The SATA drives are internal and pulling power from the internal power supply. They always are pulling power. Yes, when they are active they pull more but just because they are inactive does not mean they are not consuming power.
Others are suggesting additional causes for the problems..... still could be. However, I use a common sense approach to all of my network and workstation issues when diagnosing a problem. The first thing I ask myself...WHAT HAS CHANGED?
I hope we are on the right track. If you continue to have continued success with the third drive disconnected, I think we have isolated the cause, however it still could be other issues and the third drive just allowed them to manifest themselves. I always try and find a easy solution, it may not be the most correct one, but I save time and money and that is what works for me.
Brad
I am sorry I was not clear.... there would be little difference if you used a USB powered drive, however, my thoughts are along the larger self enclosed external USB drives that have an external power supply. That way you are not using the internal Power supply to power this device. I use these all the time for my backups and additional storage. I also use the portable drives that run off of USB power but not for mission critical data. The SATA drives are internal and pulling power from the internal power supply. They always are pulling power. Yes, when they are active they pull more but just because they are inactive does not mean they are not consuming power.
Others are suggesting additional causes for the problems..... still could be. However, I use a common sense approach to all of my network and workstation issues when diagnosing a problem. The first thing I ask myself...WHAT HAS CHANGED?
I hope we are on the right track. If you continue to have continued success with the third drive disconnected, I think we have isolated the cause, however it still could be other issues and the third drive just allowed them to manifest themselves. I always try and find a easy solution, it may not be the most correct one, but I save time and money and that is what works for me.
Brad
SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
James Rock, no, I haven't. Good question. I don't have any reason to suspect that Reaper is the problem though, because the crash reports don't point to Reaper as the cause.
briggleman, I think you're on the right track. I'd be willing to replace my power supply rather than switch to external drive if lack of power were the cause. If an inactive hard drive is enough to max out the power, I must be cutting it pretty close anyway. I'd like to diagnose this further before acting on it, and I'm wondering, is there a way to see how much power I'm using? Some software that lets me see how much strain I'm putting on my PSU?
uOpt, you're completely right that there could be a number of other causes, but we know for sure at this point that the crashes are directly related the addition of that third hard drive. That's when these crashes started initially, and the computer is stable again when it's unplugged.
I can't thank you guys enough for all the help. I'd be screwed without it.
James Rock, no, I haven't. Good question. I don't have any reason to suspect that Reaper is the problem though, because the crash reports don't point to Reaper as the cause.
briggleman, I think you're on the right track. I'd be willing to replace my power supply rather than switch to external drive if lack of power were the cause. If an inactive hard drive is enough to max out the power, I must be cutting it pretty close anyway. I'd like to diagnose this further before acting on it, and I'm wondering, is there a way to see how much power I'm using? Some software that lets me see how much strain I'm putting on my PSU?
uOpt, you're completely right that there could be a number of other causes, but we know for sure at this point that the crashes are directly related the addition of that third hard drive. That's when these crashes started initially, and the computer is stable again when it's unplugged.
I can't thank you guys enough for all the help. I'd be screwed without it.
briggleman
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
I do not know of any software that can actually do what you are looking for. I often use a power meter that you plug between the unit and the wall jack to measure wattage draw. You can pick these up for less than $20 bucks. Also remember, its your 12 volt rails in the power supply that are critical here so take the 18amp x 12 volts and your really only have 216 watts of power on each of your 12 volt rails for a total of 432 WATTS and THATS PEAK, NOT SUSTAINED. If it were me, I would have a minimum 750 watt power supply ( with a min. 12 volt 60amp SINGLE rail) in your type of configuration. I am not a dual or triple rail fan due to the possibility of a rail failure and having raid type drive configurations on multiple rails can really screw things up.
http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=2974
or this one
http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=2948
I do not know of any software that can actually do what you are looking for. I often use a power meter that you plug between the unit and the wall jack to measure wattage draw. You can pick these up for less than $20 bucks. Also remember, its your 12 volt rails in the power supply that are critical here so take the 18amp x 12 volts and your really only have 216 watts of power on each of your 12 volt rails for a total of 432 WATTS and THATS PEAK, NOT SUSTAINED. If it were me, I would have a minimum 750 watt power supply ( with a min. 12 volt 60amp SINGLE rail) in your type of configuration. I am not a dual or triple rail fan due to the possibility of a rail failure and having raid type drive configurations on multiple rails can really screw things up.
http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=2974
or this one
http://www.coolermaster-usa.com/product.php?product_id=2948
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SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
Thanks briggleman. It turns out I already had a plug-in power meter. I found that my PC draws about 140W with the two original drives, and around 160W with all three drives plugged in. That's when the system is more or less idle. Should I push the system to see how high I run the meter?
Thanks briggleman. It turns out I already had a plug-in power meter. I found that my PC draws about 140W with the two original drives, and around 160W with all three drives plugged in. That's when the system is more or less idle. Should I push the system to see how high I run the meter?
briggleman
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
OK, something is starting to smell here. I really am trying to help. If this is a game to you or something I think I will quit playing. Take care.
OK, something is starting to smell here. I really am trying to help. If this is a game to you or something I think I will quit playing. Take care.
SabbathFan0220
New member
Re: Help from any computer gurus out there
Um...what? Briggleman, I really appreciate the help, and I have no idea what just happened. Did I read the meter wrong? What would make you think I'm trying to mess with anyone?
I plugged my PC tower into a power meter, and the power meter into the wall outlet. I set the meter to read watts, and turned on the computer. I can retest it if those numbers seem off to you...
EDIT: It's possible briggleman isn't coming back. I honestly don't know what that was all about. If anyone else knows anything about PSUs, I would appreciate the help.
Um...what? Briggleman, I really appreciate the help, and I have no idea what just happened. Did I read the meter wrong? What would make you think I'm trying to mess with anyone?
I plugged my PC tower into a power meter, and the power meter into the wall outlet. I set the meter to read watts, and turned on the computer. I can retest it if those numbers seem off to you...
EDIT: It's possible briggleman isn't coming back. I honestly don't know what that was all about. If anyone else knows anything about PSUs, I would appreciate the help.
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