Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

[Artie]

My Genny is driving me nuts. I can't just go out and buy another guitar just now. If it was going flat, that would make some sense to me, but its going sharp. Today, the low E string is 20 - 30 cents sharp. The high E string around 10 cents sharp, and the other strings progressively in between.

What kinds of things can cause the strings to actually tighten up? :yell:

 

[seanguynj]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

i had times where temperature changed the tuning of my strings... maybe?

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

That is a possibility. We're at that weird time of year, in Florida, where you have the heat on at night, and the AC on during the day.

 

[Hellion]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

A drop in relative temperature or a trem that sticks are the only things that I can think of that would cause this.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Artie, is this a trem guitar? If so, Hellion is correct, the likely cause is tht the trem is hanging up in a forward-tilted position. It gets stuck with a forward tilt, and then you tune it to pitch. When the trem is pulled back into the correct position, the strings are tightened further, causing everything to go excessively sharp. If it's not a trem guitar, check to make sure the strings aren't binding in the nut. If they are, you may be tightening the strings to the desired note, but when the string unbinds itself, it is way sharp.

Ryan

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Must be the temperature then. This is a hardtail.

Thanks for those thoughts all. At least its not me thats going nuts.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Artie...Do you use "Nut Sauce" or any kind of lubricant in the nut? Do the strings ping when you tune up? Do the strings seem to grab in the nut and don't move freely?

Do you let your guitar sit and adjust out of the case to room temp before you tune it up?

Are you stringing the guitar properly? Do you stretch the strings really well(New ones)

Have you tryed a different brand..

John

 

[rspst14]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Temperature shouldn't cause the strings to go that sharp. There has to be something else causing it, and since it's a hardtail, my guess is that the strings are binding at the nut.

Ryan

 

[LesStrat]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Heheh. Temperature can DEFINITELY cause significant tuning changes. Decreases in temperature cause increased sharpness, increases in temperature cause the axe to go flat. Drastic changes (20 degrees) have made my axes as much as 1/2 step off. But never evenly (I think it has to do with string density...I will leave the technical explanation to the engineers among us).

 

[rspst14]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Heheh. Temperature can DEFINITELY cause significant tuning changes. Decreases in temperature cause increased sharpness, increases in temperature cause the axe to go flat. Drastic changes (20 degrees) have made my axes as much as 1/2 step off. But never evenly (I think it has to do with string density...I will leave the technical explanation to the engineers among us).

True, I've just never seen anything go sharp that drastically due to climate alone.

Artie, does the sharpness happen while you're playing, or does it happen when the guitar has been sitting for a while?

Ryan

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Like others said, it sounds like the nut has never been reslotted. Almost every guitar needs to have the slots widened a bit.....mandatory if the string gauge is one size larger than the 9's they usually come stock with. If you don't have nut files, just take some fine grained sandpaper, crease it in half to match the width of the nut, then run it through a few times. Also, stretch your strings thoroughly when you restring. When I tune a string, I like to loosen it, then give it a tug, then return up to pitch. This takes any potential slack off the tuning post.

After all that is done, check the intonation so that it's fine tuned so well that every note from the 10th fret to the 20th reads dead center on a tuner.
Lot's of tuning hassles are directly attributed to an intonation job that's not 100%.

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Whoa . . . a lot more replies since I looked yesterday. :laugh2:

Ok, no nut sauce. (Should I?)
Definitely a cheap plastic nut thats never been dressed or modified. This guitar is only about 3 or 4 months old.
The guitar sits out, on a stand, in my music room all the time.
Its generally sharp the next day, when I pick it up to play it after work. What I might do, is keep a temporary log, and note how extreme, and how often it does it, but it seems like its almost everyday that I have to retune. The thing is, sometimes I play this one, and sometimes I play one of the others. So, this one might sit untouched for a day. Never two.

Like others said, it sounds like the nut has never been reslotted. Almost every guitar needs to have the slots widened a bit.....mandatory if the string gauge is one size larger than the 9's they usually come stock with. If you don't have nut files, just take some fine grained sandpaper, crease it in half to match the width of the nut, then run it through a few times. Also, stretch your strings thoroughly when you restring. When I tune a string, I like to loosen it, then give it a tug, then return up to pitch. This takes any potential slack off the tuning post.

After all that is done, check the intonation so that it's fine tuned so well that every note from the 10th fret to the 20th reads dead center on a tuner.
Lot's of tuning hassles are directly attributed to an intonation job that's not 100%.

That may have a lot to do with it. This is the guitar that I was having the problem with bending a string, would cause the next one over to "snap" under my finger. So I raised the action a bit, and re-intonated it . . . a procedure that I don't have high confidence in my doing.

I do perform the string-stretch thing when I tune. I'm using Ernie Ball Slinky's 10's on it. I imagine that a good nut dressing, (I'd like to get bone), and a pro setup would do wonders for this thing.

Thanks for all the feedback so far folks. As I've said before, I know its a cheap guitar, but I've got the sound dialed-in perfect. I'd really like to make this thing work.

Artie

 

[Robert S.]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Artie, some guitars and especially Les Pauls will go sharp after they have set for awhile. While it may be a case of the nut slots needing to be cleaned up, you may just have a guitar that creeps sharp as it cools off.

Often a guitar that needs nut work will "ping" as you turn the tuners to tighten the string. Often running a little sandpaper (1000-1500 grit, the black wet/dry stuff works best) wrapped in automotive feeler guages .001" below the actual string guage and then applying a little vasoline to the slots will cure that. Just make sure to angle the "file" down towards the tuning keys so you don't file away the leading edge of the nut. Work gently and you should have no problems.

Try this, tune up the guitar until it stabilizes and then bend the strings. If they go flat, retune until that stops, then push or pull the strings from behind the nut. If doing that causes the guitar to stick sharp you probably need the not slots cleaned up. If the guitar doesn't go sharp and stay there you just have a guitar that travels sharp when it cools. It's not that uncommon a thing.

 

[MikeS]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

I'd chalk it up to temperature and humidity changes. I notice that when I leave a window cracked in my room that the strat on the wall tends to go sharp until it warms back up.

I don't buy the binding nut, either. If the friction fails and the entire string goes sharp it's far more likely to happen while playing, rather than while sitting. Even 1/2 bends should break the binding.

 

[Artie]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

Well, I'm going to try what Robert said, just because it sounds like a good "tweak". But I'm leaning towards the temp thing myself, just because all 6 strings seem to be going sharp together. And, this is the season of wildly changing temperatures here in Florida.

But this does beg another question: is this sensitivity to temperature another aspect of a "cheap-ish" guitar, or possibly, a "new" guitar? My other two Peaveys don't seem to be affected the same way. Of course, they're twenty some years old.

 

[rspst14]

Re: Help me to understand some out-of-tune issues.

I've never seen any guitar that went 20-30 cents sharp due strictly to temperature. As others have mentioned, a little sharpness is normal after it's been sitting, but I don't think it's normal for it to go 20-30 cents sharp. Mine never go more than about 5 cents sharp, but then again, all of my guitars have double expanding truss rods and/or some type of special neck reinforcement. Maybe the wood is having an extreme reaction to the temperature difference, that's the only thing I can think of other than a problem with the nut. I'm a big fan of Earvana nuts, they combine the slickness and tone of a graphite nut with greatly improved intonation, www.earvana.com. If this guitar is going to be a keeper, you may want to think about replacing that cheap plastic nut with something slicker.

Ryan