TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
Yes, they would both be virtually the same.boulder4112 said:
how much wattage do you *need*?
- Thread starter boulder4112
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Lewguitar
Guest
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
I don't agree. :laugh2: The 2x12 cab will usually have a larger interior volume, and even if the cab is an open back design I think you'll get a little more bass from the 2 x 12 design (compared to using two single 12 cabs) because the two speakers will reinforce each other and make each other resonate more.
( Similar principle to a "passive raditor design", although that is usually done in sealed cabinets, not open back guitar cabs. )
Also, remember that the sound waves from the front of the speaker are out of phase with the sound waves coming off the back side of the speaker and they will cancel the bass frequencies to some degree. It takes just a little longer for the sound waves from the back and front of the cabinet to reach each other in a larger and deeper cabinet like the 2 x 12 might be and that will result in less phase cancellation.
However, if you use two cabs each with a single 12 you can spread them out and that's a nice thing too. The sound wraps around you and surrounds you in a nice way.
Lew
Wattage said:
I don't agree. :laugh2: The 2x12 cab will usually have a larger interior volume, and even if the cab is an open back design I think you'll get a little more bass from the 2 x 12 design (compared to using two single 12 cabs) because the two speakers will reinforce each other and make each other resonate more.
( Similar principle to a "passive raditor design", although that is usually done in sealed cabinets, not open back guitar cabs. )
Also, remember that the sound waves from the front of the speaker are out of phase with the sound waves coming off the back side of the speaker and they will cancel the bass frequencies to some degree. It takes just a little longer for the sound waves from the back and front of the cabinet to reach each other in a larger and deeper cabinet like the 2 x 12 might be and that will result in less phase cancellation.
However, if you use two cabs each with a single 12 you can spread them out and that's a nice thing too. The sound wraps around you and surrounds you in a nice way.
Lew
Lee_M.
Brockburst Toneologist
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
Let me further clarify that 18W is all you need if you have a good PA. If not, then you may need additional wattage.
My experience with the 2 Soldanos I owned is that they didn't sound good (tonally) until you had them at about 50 Watts....in general, for most small clubs and fraternity gigs (in the South), that is too much stage volume. That is why I'm comfortable with my RI Vibrolux on 3-4 and perhaps an 18W Marshall clone...like the ones Bob Reinhardt makes. They were plenty loud (over 3 drummers and 5 guitarists) at the jam I went to last weekend in a decent size warehouse.
Lee_M. said:
Let me further clarify that 18W is all you need if you have a good PA. If not, then you may need additional wattage.
My experience with the 2 Soldanos I owned is that they didn't sound good (tonally) until you had them at about 50 Watts....in general, for most small clubs and fraternity gigs (in the South), that is too much stage volume. That is why I'm comfortable with my RI Vibrolux on 3-4 and perhaps an 18W Marshall clone...like the ones Bob Reinhardt makes. They were plenty loud (over 3 drummers and 5 guitarists) at the jam I went to last weekend in a decent size warehouse.
boulder4112
New member
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
well sounds like it wasnt such a stupid question after all....of course now I'm torn :laugh2:
Lewguitar said:
well sounds like it wasnt such a stupid question after all....of course now I'm torn :laugh2:
Luke Duke
PRSlustologist
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
Well I don't have the gigging experience of a lot of the guys here but I figured I could throw in a few thoughts here.
Background: 100 watt twin-----> 18 watt 2X10 combo.
Till now the talk has been very abstract about amps. A random 20-30 watter and a random 50 or 100 watter. I'm hear to tell you amp engineering plays such a HUGE part in all of this. Someone mentioned effcient speakers, that is a large component to the volume issue, # or speakers is a component in volume as well. Well made speakers, this is large component in tone.
Internal wiring is a key here too. A well wired amp will be able to better utilise the power it is making. Less gain/signal/power going to ground is going to make for a stronger/louder sound. Because of these reasons I keep my amp fairly low and use pedals to drive it at practice. When I turn it up I drown out everything. I know what you guys are thinking, and you are partially right, the PA isn't top notch, but it does have the wattage.
I loved my twin's headroom, and the bass was ungodly. I really liked pedals in front of the amp. But to get the pedals to sound the way I liked I had to get the 6L6's glowing real good. So eventually I get the Z, it does well and I decided I could do alright with only 18 watts, if its a well executed 18 watts.
I think if someone is truly committed to finding good tone with a low wattage amp they'll find what they are looking for. Now as far as a crappy PA goes, well it's crappy, nuff said. Underpowered PA, means we all need to turn down, OR everyone turn up and let vocals only go through the PA. This is where I definitely see the 100 watt virtue. On a side note; I personally go insane with drummers micing everything just to be miced.
Luke
Well I don't have the gigging experience of a lot of the guys here but I figured I could throw in a few thoughts here.
Background: 100 watt twin-----> 18 watt 2X10 combo.
Till now the talk has been very abstract about amps. A random 20-30 watter and a random 50 or 100 watter. I'm hear to tell you amp engineering plays such a HUGE part in all of this. Someone mentioned effcient speakers, that is a large component to the volume issue, # or speakers is a component in volume as well. Well made speakers, this is large component in tone.
Internal wiring is a key here too. A well wired amp will be able to better utilise the power it is making. Less gain/signal/power going to ground is going to make for a stronger/louder sound. Because of these reasons I keep my amp fairly low and use pedals to drive it at practice. When I turn it up I drown out everything. I know what you guys are thinking, and you are partially right, the PA isn't top notch, but it does have the wattage.
I loved my twin's headroom, and the bass was ungodly. I really liked pedals in front of the amp. But to get the pedals to sound the way I liked I had to get the 6L6's glowing real good. So eventually I get the Z, it does well and I decided I could do alright with only 18 watts, if its a well executed 18 watts.
I think if someone is truly committed to finding good tone with a low wattage amp they'll find what they are looking for. Now as far as a crappy PA goes, well it's crappy, nuff said. Underpowered PA, means we all need to turn down, OR everyone turn up and let vocals only go through the PA. This is where I definitely see the 100 watt virtue. On a side note; I personally go insane with drummers micing everything just to be miced.
Luke
TwilightOdyssey
Darkness on the edge of Tone
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
This isn't the first nor the last time this happened. It comes to blows every time there's a question about "how much is enough/too much" when it comes to amplifier wattage and how many 12"s you're pushing.Neeradj said:
Zerberus
Baron Von Shred
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
Exactly, and I see no need to put myself in a defensive situation because of people not in my playing situation passing judgement. Esp. if, like here, the main portion of them are not willing to listen to the reasons or even show any care about the situation itself and the intricacies it presents.
In other words: I get pissed off enough at work, I don´t need it here
*out for good*
TwilightOdyssey said:
Exactly, and I see no need to put myself in a defensive situation because of people not in my playing situation passing judgement. Esp. if, like here, the main portion of them are not willing to listen to the reasons or even show any care about the situation itself and the intricacies it presents.
In other words: I get pissed off enough at work, I don´t need it here
*out for good*
JacksonMIA
Lemur-buckerologist
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
Everyone knows you need 1.21 Giga-watts to power the flux-capacitor.
All kidding aside, if wattage were the only factor, and the higher the wattage the better, then someone would have an amp approaching this size. Your death metal guys (and I'm talking about the ones who have contracts) would certainly have amps producing 1000's of watts.
The truth we have to realize (and I think we all do, we just can't openly agree on it) is that it's not how many watts you have, it's how you use them. I've been to concerts where the band brought several stacks (for show) but were running them through the PA. And the problem with the sound guy is that he usually doesn't know anything about tone. If he did, he'd be the one on stage (not to say there aren't any that can do a good job). In those cases, I'd rather have my Blues Jr up there and be in complete control. It may not be loud enough to reach the ones in the back, but if the rest of the band dropped down to that volume, it would sound good. And then people wouldn't think you sucked, they'd just know the sound crew sucked.
There is, however, a point where a blues Jr becomes inadaquate by itself. You'd never be able to hear me across a pro football stadium and you'd surely never hear me over a 100W with even a half-stack. If you know you're never going to play those types of venues, and you can talk some sense into the rest of your band, you can get by with a lower wattage amp, especially if you can manage to get a good sound crew.
That's not to say you can't use a big amp in a small venue. If you have a master volume, an attenuator, or something of the sort, you can get a decent tone without killing anyone. Remember, Van Halen and others had trouble keeping gigs because people thought the were too loud (They still may be too loud). If you want to make it, you may have to make compromises. If you aren't worried about getting famous, just get whatever sounds the best. If they don't like it, it's their loss.
Everyone knows you need 1.21 Giga-watts to power the flux-capacitor.
All kidding aside, if wattage were the only factor, and the higher the wattage the better, then someone would have an amp approaching this size. Your death metal guys (and I'm talking about the ones who have contracts) would certainly have amps producing 1000's of watts.
The truth we have to realize (and I think we all do, we just can't openly agree on it) is that it's not how many watts you have, it's how you use them. I've been to concerts where the band brought several stacks (for show) but were running them through the PA. And the problem with the sound guy is that he usually doesn't know anything about tone. If he did, he'd be the one on stage (not to say there aren't any that can do a good job). In those cases, I'd rather have my Blues Jr up there and be in complete control. It may not be loud enough to reach the ones in the back, but if the rest of the band dropped down to that volume, it would sound good. And then people wouldn't think you sucked, they'd just know the sound crew sucked.
There is, however, a point where a blues Jr becomes inadaquate by itself. You'd never be able to hear me across a pro football stadium and you'd surely never hear me over a 100W with even a half-stack. If you know you're never going to play those types of venues, and you can talk some sense into the rest of your band, you can get by with a lower wattage amp, especially if you can manage to get a good sound crew.
That's not to say you can't use a big amp in a small venue. If you have a master volume, an attenuator, or something of the sort, you can get a decent tone without killing anyone. Remember, Van Halen and others had trouble keeping gigs because people thought the were too loud (They still may be too loud). If you want to make it, you may have to make compromises. If you aren't worried about getting famous, just get whatever sounds the best. If they don't like it, it's their loss.
That90'sGuy
DyzaBoyzologist
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
I am suprised just how heated this has become.
Here's how I see it (hopefully everyone agrees with me here)
bedroom / small gigs with no PA / large gig with good PA = small amps work great
arenas and huge gigs with either no PA or a bad PA = 100w amps ok, sometimes a 50w amp + will work
I can see both sides of it to a point. For my type of target audience, my 30w amp works great and for others like Ben, the 100w half stack is the only way that the music can get across (which is the most important part). It's really a balance of getting the "sweet spot" on the amp while getting the right projection for where you're playing.
I am suprised just how heated this has become.
Here's how I see it (hopefully everyone agrees with me here)
bedroom / small gigs with no PA / large gig with good PA = small amps work great
arenas and huge gigs with either no PA or a bad PA = 100w amps ok, sometimes a 50w amp + will work
I can see both sides of it to a point. For my type of target audience, my 30w amp works great and for others like Ben, the 100w half stack is the only way that the music can get across (which is the most important part). It's really a balance of getting the "sweet spot" on the amp while getting the right projection for where you're playing.
That90'sGuy
DyzaBoyzologist
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
:laugh2:
:laugh2:
Jeff Seal
New member
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
....... :blackeye: ......whoa, I'm not liking this at all!!!!
Debate for the sake of learning is good, but assuming you know more than anyone else is completely disrespectful......fact of life and not negotiable and it applies to everyone....(including me!).....
All of you are correct, but yet have still managed to find a way to "fail" to come to common ground......(which is quite rare for this forum!)
....(steps down from "soapbox")...my experiences with the subject matter shall remain unspoken until it's time....
...please be cool!
Jeff Seal
....... :blackeye: ......whoa, I'm not liking this at all!!!!
Debate for the sake of learning is good, but assuming you know more than anyone else is completely disrespectful......fact of life and not negotiable and it applies to everyone....(including me!).....
All of you are correct, but yet have still managed to find a way to "fail" to come to common ground......(which is quite rare for this forum!)
....(steps down from "soapbox")...my experiences with the subject matter shall remain unspoken until it's time....
...please be cool!
Jeff Seal
Re: how much wattage do you *need*?
Can my little roland 60watt paticse amp power a half stack? (4x12)
cause it'd be interesting, i really have no idea how it works either, wattage with amp's and stuff is so crazy different from car audio, where 700watts in a car is weak, but 60 watts in an amp blows it out of the water.
Can my little roland 60watt paticse amp power a half stack? (4x12)
cause it'd be interesting, i really have no idea how it works either, wattage with amp's and stuff is so crazy different from car audio, where 700watts in a car is weak, but 60 watts in an amp blows it out of the water.
