how much wattage do you *need*?

[Davey]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Hey Davey, let me ask you a question... is a 100 watt tube amp twice as loud as a 50 watt tube amp?

you still want to pick a fight?

no, it isnt.. an amp that'd be twice as loud than a 50W amp, you'd have to exponentially increase the wattage so the huamn ear hears it double. if a 50W through a 4X12 produces 96dB of sound and a 100W 3 to 4dB more then a 200W another 3-4, you'd need a fricking large amp through the same cab to hear the 200dB it would pump out.. but it's a shame you couldnt, cos you'd go deaf at 147dB

happy?

now leave me or i'll say something i really dont want to.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

now leave me or i'll say something i really dont want to

Uhh... ok.


My point is that if the PA in an arena sucks, the not-that-much more volume you get from a 100 watt amp is not gonna save the day.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Clean does not sound very loud really, it is the clipping we hear as loud, because it sometimes pushes the mids in that way that adds preassure on the ears.
Like switching on a tubescreamer on a BF fender...auch.
My Hiwatt sounds about as loud as a slightly dirty 45 watts combo, but it is much more clearsounding amp, and will cut better in a band that plays hardrock or fusion or anything else that is dense in the soundscape.
It is more a question of how they are voiced and how much they boost certain mid frequencies, so some big amps would probally be much more gentle on your ears than say a real honky amp with alot less power.
The latter are very hard on the ears due to the sheer preassure they add in the lower mids, spikes are not nice.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Wow, this thread is really getting interesting now! **coughcough**
By that I mean exactly what I said before: there is no absolute answer, and aside from one or two people that have posted, most of us are downright dogmatic when it comes to what works and what doesn't.

I will be frank with you all -- when I hit the stage, it's time to make the donuts. I really don't give a fetid dingo's kidney if I'm forced to play through a 5150 (egads) or, even worse, a Marshall hybrid amp ...

What does matter is that everyone, both on stage and off, can hear me. That is the reality of the matter.

If your particluar stage is a 6" riser at local pub, and a 2x12 combo gives you what you want, then more power to ya ... but that will only last so long. Because once you graduate beyond that scenario, you're screwed.

Being totally objective, I agree with Davey on one point ... Skarekrough hasn't answered most of the questions I posed. Sorry, man, but I don't see what practical experience your 30W dogma is based on. I, on the other hand, can relate many experiences where my butt was saved purely by the fact that my rig is versatile enough to handle the problems that Old Man Fate threw my way ...

Davey will make someone a good bodyguard, I think. No offense, buddy, I appreciate your sticking up for us 'volume freaks'.

FINAL NOTE: I'm not calling anyone out here. I really don't care what you people use out there on the front lines of battle, but the question was raised, and I will tell you what my experience has yielded. If you contest that view with an INTELLIGENT REBUTTAL (JB From Hell has some excellent points, I think, as does Rid), then I will answer with an intelligent reply. If you're a d!ck about it, welll ... then you're just plain stupid.

On a final note, someone very rightly pointed out that most of this forum is comprised of tone freaks, who don't have, nor see, the practical need for a 100W full stack. I'm here to tell you, in black and white, in plain english: you have no clue what you're talking about. On the front lines of rock, a 50-100W and your guitar are your weapons and your best friends. 99% of all the sound engineers out there are more your enemy than your friend. I don't care if you believe this or not, but it's the plain truth.

Amen and pass the beer!

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

In the vein of "everything affects everything", I'm suprised that folks have hardly touched on the issue of speakers and cabs. A 6dB difference in speaker sensitivity can make a 25W amp as loud as a 100W amp. Factor in psychoacoustics or EQ and things really start getting subjective.

In addition to the speaker factor, some cabs project better than others. 1x12s, especially in combos, are kind of beamy. Some cabs have better bass response than others which can make a big difference in clean response, impacting the need for headroom since low frequencies often need more power to push 'em right.

That said, I've had no trouble being heard with my 10W Peters in a two guitar band with a hard-hitting drummer. I had jack for clean headroom but it wasn't such a big deal in that band. With the softer hitting drummer in my current band, I can even get acceptable cleans by rolling off the guitar volume.

I tend to gravitate toward 50W as being "enough". 100W is a bit much and I prefer only having to deal with a pair of power tubes. IME, by the time a 100W amp gets to the sweet spot, it's oftentimes too loud for my taste.

My $0.02, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc.

Most intelligent post in this whole thread. (Not that all of you have a penis envy thing going just some...you know who you are) aleclee wins a cookie and a pint of his choice.

I've got a 100 watt Carvin 100 X-B...(Fozzy Bear Series) I almost never get the volume past 2. If I put it up to 5 hearing loss is right around the corner and the rest of the band might as well go home because they won't be heard. I use a 2x12 cab open back. Unless you are playing to huge crowds 50 watts is plenty. If the PA is crappy then you took the wrong gig...your booking agent needs to be fired or you need to bring your own. This is the 21st century. There is no excuse for bad PA sound anymore.

Also...learn to play as a band. The PA is there to make things a bit louder and to spread the acoustic energy evenly. Try this test. At practice where you just use a back line and monitors...hang an omni about dead center of the group about 8-10 feet high. Play a song. If the mix sounds way unbalanced somebody is too damn loud. Guess who it usually is in a band with a **** head and a 100 watt half stack?

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Also...learn to play as a band. The PA is there to make things a bit louder and to spread the acoustic energy evenly. Try this test. At practice where you just use a back line and monitors...hang an omni about dead center of the group about 8-10 feet high. Play a song. If the mix sounds way unbalanced somebody is too damn loud. Guess who it usually is in a band with a **** head and a 100 watt half stack?

That's how I record our rehearsals every week, and they sound fine.

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Points to T.O for having ears and using them.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Points to T.O for having ears and using them.

While they last... :laugh2:

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

WHAT DID YOU ALL JUST SAY???
WHAT??
Damm where is me hearaid??

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

While they last... :laugh2:

LOL!
Touche!
:sword:

Lew, I never heard back from you after my last PM ...

 

[WhoFan]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Hey guys... considering I dont really have the ability to crank up a 100 watt amp around here... I was wondering your opinions on how much power you need for a gig. Playing live, with a band, do you think that 55 watts of honest tube power with two twelve inch speakers is enough? I always see bands around here playing with a 100 watter and a 4x12, even though the club seems pretty small. Do you think you really need all that power? are they even using it?

I just read thru some of this thread for the first time..... I'll throw in my 2 cents for the original question. If you have a good PA all the power you need is enough to hear yourself over the rest of the band. I know some guys use little wee amps and mic them and boost the volume up thru the monitors... That works. Some guys i know are still using PODS for some gigs and only using monitors.... But for hearing myself over the band a 30 watt Tube 1x12 combo amp works for me, a Peavey Classic 30 sometimes with another 1x12 ext cab. I perfer My 50 watt heads thru a Marshall 1x12 cab most of the times for better tone but for sheer volume the Classic 50 just does it. I had used a 5150 stack with 4x12 in clubs before and it was complete over kill! The few times it did come in handy when we played outdoor shows or had crappy pa's......


Anwser to your question should be an amp as loud as you can hear yourself for what you are playing and playing with at the time.

WhoFan

 

[jeremy]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

please keep it respectful

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

and you brought the right equipment.. was it always a 30W or lower? what would've happened if you didnt know the venue.. and you prolly know that a 30W doesnt always handle the situation

I haven't always owned 30 watt amps. I owned half-stacks for quite awhile. And I learned the hard way how unneccesary they were. Even in the outdoor festivals I've played my half-stacks were more power than I needed.

Funny story...years ago we played a benifit in a gym. Good cause, good people. We show up with 100 watters and the reverb just about knocks us back into the wall. Were so confused between the monitor mix and the slapback that were getting lost in songs.

Soundguy, a grizzled old veteran I'd worked with before (and had specified in the contract) tell us to point the amps backwards and turn down. We had to rely solely on the monitor mix to hear ourselves. Huge college gym right there, big amps were the exact opposite of what we needed.

You always know the venue you're playing. That's what being a professional is all about. You do your homework - you specify in your contracts what is acceptable to you and after you've played long enough you know sound companies and certain soundguys that know what you're doing. When you play a new club you set foot in the place before the night of the gig and listen to the room and the house PA and take notes. You talk to the soundguy or even bring your own. You may even want to bring your own PA or certain parts of it.

But if you conduct yourself as a musician like you conduct yourself on here then it's obvious that you have little to no concept of what being professional would involve.

so what? i dont care if you played more gigs than any other band out there, that still doesnt prove you right

No...it just proves that I have had more experience. And when you interact with other players that have more experience you listen and learn. Maybe what they do will work for you, maybe not. Veterans will teach you more about gigging than you can ever learn in a book or read on the internet. Every night on a stage is a lesson learned. Every bandleader you work with for awhile is like going to college again.

But you don't shoot your mouth off like a kid who's just barely old enough to get into the places he's playing.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

LOL!
Touche!
:sword:

Lew, I never heard back from you after my last PM ...

:laugh2: Glad you caught the humor in that. Thanks! :laugh2:

What was your last PM? I get so many so many they kind of blur together. Did I forget to respond? Lew

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

What was your last PM? I get so many so many they kind of blur together. Did I forget to respond? Lew

I'll resend it; I made an offer on the neck plate screws + LP electronics cavity cover.

 

[Wattage]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

fftopic: I've got to say some piss poor manners in here, talking out your ass is talking out your ass regardless of age or experience. As Jeremy said keep it respectful guys. fftopic:

If you know what works for you, you know what works for you. I have played a few hundred gigs in my life and I have never had much luck with a 1x12 of any sort ever, regardless of the wattage (no pun intended this time). Nor have I had much luck with 30watts of power regardless of speaker combination, if you have great! If I played in a Tom Petty tribute band maybe it would work for me, it's a lot different situation. The music I play is based on a lot of energy and feeling the sound, that isn't going to happen with a small amp on stage, no way, no how. Some rooms still suck to play no matter how good/bad the gig is, they pay=we play, if I have to turn down I turn down. I have rarely had a monitor mix on stage that knocks my sox off, my drummer hits like he is killing people and my bass player would like to cause a tremor, we're not Motorhead but we're loud, it's my reality. I switched to a 2x12 combo and guess what? I need to push a 4x12 to be happy with my sound onstage, I don't deafen everyone doing it but sound projection makes a huge difference to me and my band's overall sound it is that simple - no mathematical equations necessary. When the band says more amp please I'll tell them "no sorry the guys on the Forum said I should use my practice amp" :laugh2:

Use what works for you and your situation, that's why there are 4 zillion amps out their guys :smack:

 

[RiffRaff]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

yah.. anything that gives you your tone. you got that right. but dont come crying when you play one gig and your sound sucks, noone can hear you etc etc etc. that's where you'd wish you had more room to play with, even though you had your sound. if it's too loud just ue an attenuator or turn the master volume down. noone said you HAVE to crank it all the way

I wasn't looking for an arguement, just respecting your place in the big picure - you on the other hand have a bug up your azz and are hell bent on being a ****. Two words little man - GROW UP!

 

[Hot _Grits]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

Guys, it's all about the scenario you're faced with.

I find that for club venues of the 100-500 capacity range, which is the lion's share of the gigs I play, a 40 watt tube amp is pretty much perfect for what I do, which is mostly play clean. At 40 watts, an amp will stay clean to a point, and after that overdrives at a volume that is nice for a solo boost.

I've used 30 and 40 watt rigs with 2x10s or 2x12s for larger events, the largest being to 8000 people, and every time, I've had a decent enough monitor mix and the PA has done the work.

As far as gigs where you aren't miked, I've played my share of them, and in general if the room is about 100 person capacity you can get away with it.

We all have unique requirements. In my band, I have to be able to hear myself over a three piece horn section, which is easy on a larger stage but very difficult on a small stage.

 

[boulder4112]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

um... in case anyone cares I think my question has been answered

one thing though.... can anyone tell me if a 50 watt 1x12 combo amp with a 1x12 extension cab is as good as a 50 watt head with a 2x12 cab?

I cant think of any reason it wouldnt be, it's just that everyone seems to talk about 2x12's and 4x12's here which is not really what I'm thinking of. The question probably sounds stupid but I just want to be sure I am understanding this issue right.

 

[Rainmaker]

Re: how much wattage do you *need*?

I think what certain members mean, boulder, is that 2x12 and 4x12's will sound fuller and more in your face than a 1x12, which will be thinner, because only one speaker is pushing out the sound.