How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

[mwalluk]

I"ve spent the last week really reading up on my amp and really trying to understand it. I read from reviews, to blogs, to articles, to whatever I could get my hands on. I really wanna maximize my tone and learn how certain aspects of my amp affect my tone and what I can do to enhance it.


What the eff does this mean and how does this affect what tubes I place in the V spots?!?!?!

Per Fryette's manual.....

PREAMP GAIN / VOLUME SECTION

2. GAIN I / VOICING – Sets the amount of overdrive in the second gain stage. This first gain control also
serves as a tone shaping control, counter-clockwise for crisp and articulate, clockwise for thick and
saturated.

3. GAIN II / OVERDRIVE – Full frequency gain boost or cut. Sets the amount of overdrive in the third gain
stage. Works in conjunction with Gain I to dial in the perfect overdrive/sustain amount for your guitar and
pick-up combination.

4. MORE / LESS –This switch selects three stages or four stages of tube preamp gain depending on the
amount of overdrive required. LESS = 3 stages, MORE = 4 stages. When using stomp boxes or active
pick-ups, four stages of gain are often unnecessary and generate

What's the gain stages mean? Does it mean when engaged it's only using all 4 pres and when it's not it's using 3 pres?

Each 12AX7 has two sections/functions. Section A is shown first, Section B is second.

V1 (shielded tube) Input Gain Stage 1 (Parallel Triodes).

V2 (shielded tube) Gain Stage 2 - Stage 4. Active only when MORE / LESS switch is set to MORE.

V3 (shielded tube) Gain Stage 3 - Tone Control Driver.

V4 Phase Inverter.

This is what I don't understand yet and really want to. This way I can know exactly what tubes I should use in the V spots and how said tube will affect the amp.

I'm running a pair of Genalex Gold Lion RI KT88s for the power tubes. I have around 11 pres I can use for the V spots. Here's what I got.

Tungsol - 2x
EHX - 2x
JJ ECC83
Sovtek LPS
Sovtek WB
4 Rubys (older)

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Also what does cathode and follower spot mean in lamen terms.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Ok keep in mind that there are 2 sides in a 12AX7 so either both or just 1 can be used as a gain stage.

In your case V1 both sides are gain stages. V2 the first half is a gain stage thats always on the 2nd half is a gain stage that is only one when the "more" switch is engaged.

V3 the first half is a gain stage and the 2nd half is your tone network.


In practical terms it means v1 is yoru primary gain driver it will set the texture of the gain going into all subsequent stages this is a VERY important tube make sure and pick a good one. Less gain here means less gain in all the other stages down the line. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what your after. You also want a tube here that has the right eq balance and pick attack that you want for the whole amp.

V2 and V3 are the same but less so particularly

Theres lots of opinons on what you need for a good phase inverter ive become of the mind that its a trial and error slot. Though i will say this most modern amps do seem to be more tolerant of having less than stellar tubes in this slot than classic designs do.

Im not 100% familiar with the deliverances schematic and sorry but im too tired to look it up maybe later but it seems that the gain controls are controlling not only the gain but also some form of eq staging too.

Gain II sounds like its just an extra gain stage im going to assume that it is V2 and this is akin to the drive control on a mesa mkIV its basically just another gain stage they call it full frequency it just means its even louder still with no EQing.

The more or less switch is just a switchable gain boost


Cathode follow is the same as phase inverter (well as far as you amp is concerned it is there can be a difference when talking about different amp types) Basically what this does is split the signal into 2. 1 is the orginal signal while the other is a mirror image of it. Then each signal is fed into a power tube. This is an overly simple explaination of it but im running out of gas fast.


Really what all these gain stages mean and you can accomplish with them is you can mix and match them to create different "textures" of gain. From chunky to zingy crushed glass styles. My preference in general on amps where i have the ability is to run the later gain stages hard and run the earlier ones lower. This makes for a less saturated type sound that doesnt have that white noise buzziness to it.


I hope some of what i wrote helps if not ill try to clear it up but i'm running on 90 minutes sleep and my thought processes are hard to keep in a straight line at the moment.

 

[CTN]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

your amp has 4 gain stages. the 4th can be put in or taken out of your signal chain.

1st gain stage is to amplify the guitar sound to a level usable by the rest of the preamp circuit. This is necessary and you can't get around it. It's also probably the most important tube as far as dictating what your tone is going to sound like (we're talking things like clarity, punchiness, articulation, shimmer, thump etc).

2nd gain stage - the more gain you add, the thicker sounding it gets. This should be used in conjunction with the 3rd gain stage, which adds raw gain. For example, if you want a tight, bright high gain tone, you might set the 2nd stage conservatively, and dime the 3rd stage. But if you want something thick and meaty, you might set the 2nd stage high, and set the 3rd lower. In either case, if you can't squeeze enough gain out of the 2nd and 3rd stages, there's always the 4th stage to bump it up.

If this still sounds confusing, it might be worth learning more about the 12ax7 tube type as well. It's a dual-triode design. Each triode in the tube can be used as a gain stage. In other words, a single 12ax7 tube may have two different functions in the circuit, depending on how the preamp was designed.

I would go with a Tung Sol in V1, or maybe an LPS
V2 I would go with something that has good gain, but good tone as well. Tung Sol or EHX, maybe a JJ, if the other options are too bright.
V3 I would go with something that is balanced sounding but still good gain. Sovtek WB or EHX.

The Phase inverter has very little to do with tone. the differences between 12ax7s in the PI spot are very very minimal, but test out a bunch here to see what sounds best to you.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

The Phase inverter has very little to do with tone. the differences between 12ax7s in the PI spot are very very minimal, but test out a bunch here to see what sounds best to you.

In modern amps this seems to be more the case than in classic amps. My feeling has always been that amps that rely more on the poweramp for character rely more on the phase inverter than designs which use the preamp to do all the magic.

Lets face it in amps like VHT's particulary when running KT88's that dont distort or compress the poweramp is much less a factor in the tone of the amp than the preamp is.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

I posted this question on a couple musician boards (which all suck btw). Here's a couple responses I got. *I weeded out the responses that have no merit like "why does it matter, just plug and play" or the ever so infamous "tone's in your fingers bro not in the tubes."

A gain stage is a type of circuit that makes a signal louder. In a guitar amp, you have a lot of them in a row, and each gain stage amplifies the signal that was amplified by the previous one, which was amplified by the previous one, etc. Eventually, the signal is amplified so hard that the gain stage can't faithfully reproduce the signal - this is where we get distortion. In a guitar amp, usually only the first gain stage is truly clean...every other stage just makes the signal dirtier. In a low gain amp like a Fender, you only have 2 gain stages. A JCM800 has 3. A 5150 has 5. Your deliverance has 4, so it has the potential to create more distortion than a JCM800, but not as much as a 5150. This is a bit of an oversimplification, as there are a LOT of different factors that affect the tonality and the amount of distortion that you hear, but it works as a rough generalization.

So, in the D60, you have 4 preamp tubes. You also have 4 gain stages. That doesn't mean that 1 tube = 1 gain stage. Actually, a 12AX7 is a Dual Triode - it is two separate amplifiers in one enclosure. That means that your amp has the potential to have EIGHT gain stages! Not really. You can use a preamp section for things other than just gain...like driving the power section (V4) or pushing the tone stack (1/2 of V3). Sometimes, you need to modify the signal without amplifying it in order for it to be useful. Also, in the first tube, the triodes are paralleled, so instead of acting like two separate gain stages, they're acting like one (with a little more gain than a regular gain stage). So in a D60, out of eight potential gain stages, you're actually using 4 to amplify and distort the preamp signal. What the More/Less switch does is bypass one of the gain stages (V2-2, gain stage 4). So you're still using the tube (for gain stage #2), but you're only using half of it.







Honestly, the best way to find out which tubes sound the best is to just plug 'em in and see what your ears like. All of the pre tubes in the D60 are 12AX7s, so you can put any of your 12AX7s in any of the available slots without damaging anything. Don't use a different type (like a 12AT7 or AU7), though...you can damage something if you put the wrong type of tube in the wrong slot.

I'll try and avoid technical terms here and explain it as I understand it. 12AX7's are known as a 'dual triode' tube. This means basically that there are two separate sides in each bottle (like having two separate triode tubes). Amp builders could just use a single triode on its own - sometimes you'll see an amp with a spare triode, but it's not common.

Individual triodes can be used in many different ways, including the following:

1. To amplify a signal - i.e. known as a 'gain' stage where the signal that leaves the triode is greater than the signal that came in. Depending on the level of the input signal this can also include distorting the signal.
2. To 'drive' a set of tone controls, where the actual level of the signal isn't amplified.

Pairs of triodes may also be put in parallel with each other to work together at the same task - your amp has a parallel input stage (the first stage your guitar input connects to), so both halves of V1 are used together as the first stage of the amp. Parallel triodes have the benefit of giving lower overall noise, and potentially a richer more 'complex' tone than just a single triode.

A phase inverter is the tube that splits the signal out into two to feed the power tubes. There are a number of ways to do this, but typically a single tube/pair of triodes are used - one feeds out the signal unchanged to one side of the power section, the other triode feeds out an inverted signal to the other side of the power section. The power amp does its thing and the resulting signals are recombined in the output transformer. PIs are only needed in push-pull amplifiers, not single ended amps, where a single tube (or sometimes multiple tubes in parallel) is used.

An amplifier as a whole is a sum of any number of gain stages, with the signal boosted and dropped along the way plus any frequency shaping controls and gizmos. The 'driver' stages are used to avoid the signal being lost too much across the tone controls.

Your amp has 4 gain stages and a number of volume controls. Each volume control specifies how much of the signal will be dropped before the next stage - i.e. they are subtractive. Simplistically you think of the signal path like this (I haven't looked at a schematic but assume it is structured in this way. This also excludes any attenuation/dropping of the signal between stages). The earlier volume controls will affect the signal for everything that comes after them.

Guitar input.
Gain stage one (both halves of V1).
'Gain 1' control
Gain stage two (half of V2)
'Gain 2' control
Gain stage three (half of V3)
Gain stage 4 (other half of V2 and only used if 'more' mode is enabled)
Driver stage (other half of V3)
Tone controls
Master volume
Phase inverter
Power Tubes
Output transformer
Speakers

I have excluded the presence and depth controls from this, as technically they aren't in the signal path - they affect how the phase inverter and power section deal with high and low frequencies.

Having multiple preamp gain controls gives you a lot of tonal possibilities, as you can control exactly where your distortion is being created.

Hopefully this helps!

Paul.

and was also referred to this....
http://valvewizard1.webs.com/Common_Gain_Stage.pdf

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Most of the info in those 2 replies is pretty sound theres a few things that are off but nothing important. Like a 5150 actually has 6 gain stages on the lead channel not 5 and your deliverance has as many as 5 not 4 but thats not that important.

The info in the 2nd post is pretty good and pretty much what my sleep deprived blather was trying to say.

Though in the end the best way to find what tubes to put where is to try em and find out.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

I hear ya.

I think part of my problem may be coming from the cab I use. It's an Avatar Trad 212 cab. Dimension wise it's comparable to a Fender style cab which is smaller/thinner than a Marshall style cab. Also it could be my speaker choice which is a Celestion Vintage 30 and Celestion Classic Lead 80. The cab has a retractable section that can make a semi open back into a closed back. As of recently, I turned it to an open back for the first time which may be the cause of my amp sounding too bright. Hopefully that will add back some of the lowend lost and make it more full. Which in return can help me choose which tubes to use.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Ok keep in mind that there are 2 sides in a 12AX7 so either both or just 1 can be used as a gain stage.

In your case V1 both sides are gain stages. V2 the first half is a gain stage thats always on the 2nd half is a gain stage that is only one when the "more" switch is engaged.

V3 the first half is a gain stage and the 2nd half is your tone network.


In practical terms it means v1 is yoru primary gain driver it will set the texture of the gain going into all subsequent stages this is a VERY important tube make sure and pick a good one. Less gain here means less gain in all the other stages down the line. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what your after. You also want a tube here that has the right eq balance and pick attack that you want for the whole amp.

V2 and V3 are the same but less so particularly

Theres lots of opinons on what you need for a good phase inverter ive become of the mind that its a trial and error slot. Though i will say this most modern amps do seem to be more tolerant of having less than stellar tubes in this slot than classic designs do.

Im not 100% familiar with the deliverances schematic and sorry but im too tired to look it up maybe later but it seems that the gain controls are controlling not only the gain but also some form of eq staging too.

Gain II sounds like its just an extra gain stage im going to assume that it is V2 and this is akin to the drive control on a mesa mkIV its basically just another gain stage they call it full frequency it just means its even louder still with no EQing.

The more or less switch is just a switchable gain boost

I'm 100% with you up until this point. I think this part of the post is very helpful.

Cathode follow is the same as phase inverter (well as far as you amp is concerned it is there can be a difference when talking about different amp types) Basically what this does is split the signal into 2. 1 is the orginal signal while the other is a mirror image of it. Then each signal is fed into a power tube. This is an overly simple explaination of it but im running out of gas fast.

The cathode follower is not the same as the phase inverter. The cathode follower's purpose is to lower the impedance of the circuit at that point to drive the tonestack. The Deliverance is a bit unorthodox in that one of the gain pots actually changes the EQ actively, so the tonestack isn't the only thing providing the EQ, but it needs some current to maintain signal integrity through the filters. I could put up some equations with filter frequencies and R and C values to prove all this stuff, but that would require a lot of confusing equations and not much real-life applicability. It would also be testing portions of my brain I shut off long ago.

The phase inverter stuff you got right. It maintains the signal in phase through one of the two triodes and delivers it exactly out of phase in the other to drive a push-pull power amp. I think most high-wattage amplifiers have push-pull class A/B power amp setups, and yours most certainly does. A PI is not necessary in a class A amp. (I don't think it is, anyway. There may be some kind of odd, rare exception.)

Really what all these gain stages mean and you can accomplish with them is you can mix and match them to create different "textures" of gain. From chunky to zingy crushed glass styles. My preference in general on amps where i have the ability is to run the later gain stages hard and run the earlier ones lower. This makes for a less saturated type sound that doesnt have that white noise buzziness to it.


I hope some of what i wrote helps if not ill try to clear it up but i'm running on 90 minutes sleep and my thought processes are hard to keep in a straight line at the moment.

With as many gain stages are available in the Deliverance, there are plenty of options as to how you control the gain structure. You could put lower gain tubes throughout and run with the more switch engaged. You could put higher-gain tubes throughout and run with it disengaged. How you do it just depends on what sounds best to you.

What I think everyone will agree with, though, is that V1 is the most important. Replace that tube with every one you have, and choose which one sounds best. From there, go on to V2 and put one in that complements V1. If your amp is too bright, try a JJ or a Chinese. If it's still a bit on the dull side, try a Tung-Sol or ElectroHarmonix. For V3, you really just want a durable tube. My standby recommendation for that application is Sovtek LPS. This tube will not have nearly as much effect on the overall tone of the amp as any other, I don't think.

We could probably have a lengthy discussion about the PI tube and still never reach a scientific conclusion. I would always defer to glassman for that type of question. In my amp, a low gain PI tube really opened up the power section. However, that's based on a Soldano design that's really intended to drive the power amp hard for a smooth overdrive. I love his preamp, but I felt like a lower-gain PI really opened up the sound. I don't think that's the case for a Fryette amp, because I'm pretty sure he designed everything perfectly. In any case, you'll want a reliable tube here, and the only Russian ones I know that fit that description are the LPS and the Mullard RI. But this one is so subjective to taste that you'll probably want to swap this spot out once you get V1 and V2 sorted.

Good luck, and feel free to ask any questions. I'm sure we can come to a consensus. Hopefully your ears will agree with us.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

I tried a ts jj Lps EHX combo. Sounds great clean. However high gain with more switch engaged it sounds like utter mush an ass

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Is it bc off the jj or the later tubes?

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Well swapped out the JJ which cleared the mush up. Still kept the clear clean tone which I'm really loving.

Amp still is wickedly bright though. I love prescence and that in your face bite of 80s hair metal distortion but man it's way bright. Even with bass up to 3 o clock, treb/mid/pres below noon. Though it's more tolerable now. I just gotta eff around with the eq section a little more. I'm getting closer.

HOWEVER, there's a good bit of white noise going on even with the gain dropped to 1 oclock, less switch on. I'm not sure if that's due to the LPS being in the 3rd slot and the EHX being in the PI? Don't remember if it was that noisy when I had the those two reversed.

Almost there though.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Switched the EHX and Sovtek LPS around with better results. Sounds a lot better now, still bright but not bad. The hiss also wasn't as bad. I also took 2 pedals and a buffer off my board so I'm only running 4 pedals a tuner and a volume pedal. Those pedals really sucked the tone out of my amp. Sounds a hell of a lot better now.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Is that a JJ ECC83S? Or the ECC803S? If it's got less than an inch between the plates, it's the former. If it's the long-plate version, I would argue it's a better tube, and it shouldn't sound too bad in V2. I think if you still want to tame the brightness, you should replace the V2 tube, and you should probably do it with a well-selected Chinese tube or a long-plate JJ. I like the Chinese ones better, but if you've already got an ECC803S, give that a shot. Soulcrusher_X likes the Penta brand, and I've never tried them. I like Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+.

I wouldn't blame you if you were turned off to JJs altogether. I don't really like them in the preamp at all, but I can understand where someone would find a use for the ECC803S. The ECC83, though, fuggeddaboudit.

 

[Soulcrusher_X]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

If the V3 spot includes the cathode follower, which is probably what the Tone Driver section is, then i would NOT recommend the LPS there. For some reason, cathode followers tend to eat the life out of those tubes, and most likely ALL long plate tubes in quick order. Most short plate or medium length plate tubes should last a long time there.

Though, I do really like long-plate tubes in the PI. I also agree with Whizzy that a lower-gain tube in the PI can work WONDERS in a lot of amps. Whether it be his JetCity or my Splawn or MKIII, we've both noticed a more open, tighter tone. It might work great with your D60. I really liked the JJ 803 with my MKIII, so maybe give it a try. If it works out, then maybe try out some other lower-gain tubes like the AT7 or AU7. I think Whizzy really likes the AU7 in his amp. The AT7 worked great in my old XXX. That amp was so compressed and the AT7 really opened it up and made it more articulate.

The Chinese tubes are well liked my a lot of dudes here, and I personally think as long as they come from a reputable brand like Ruby, Penta or GT, or even just a reputable dealer, like Doug's, then they are very reliable. I have only had problems with some junkers I got unmarked from ebay.

In just about every one of my amps, I use a TS in V1. It's just a good-sounding tube with good crunch, grind, response and MOST of them have been trouble free. A few got noisy and had 'idle white noise' issues, but never failed completely. I usually follow the TS with a few chinese tubes unless the amp is excessively bright, then I use a high-gain JJ 83s in V2. Then a long plate tube for the PI. In my JSX, I have been really diggin a combo of TS/Chinese/Chinese/JJ 803s. My MKIII had TS/Chinese/Chinese/Chinese/JJ 803s.

 

[Soulcrusher_X]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Some of the brightness might be a little to do with that CL80. They do have a fairly neutral tone, but they can sometimes be bright. Sometimes, the V30s can be harsh. IF you still think it's bright when you get the tubes situated, maybe try some Greenbacks or G1265 variants?

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Is that a JJ ECC83S? Or the ECC803S? If it's got less than an inch between the plates, it's the former. If it's the long-plate version, I would argue it's a better tube, and it shouldn't sound too bad in V2. I think if you still want to tame the brightness, you should replace the V2 tube, and you should probably do it with a well-selected Chinese tube or a long-plate JJ. I like the Chinese ones better, but if you've already got an ECC803S, give that a shot. Soulcrusher_X likes the Penta brand, and I've never tried them. I like Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+.

I wouldn't blame you if you were turned off to JJs altogether. I don't really like them in the preamp at all, but I can understand where someone would find a use for the ECC803S. The ECC83, though, fuggeddaboudit.

It was the short platted one, ecc83.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

The cathode follower is not the same as the phase inverter. The cathode follower's purpose is to lower the impedance of the circuit at that point to drive the tonestack. The Deliverance is a bit unorthodox in that one of the gain pots actually changes the EQ actively, so the tonestack isn't the only thing providing the EQ, but it needs some current to maintain signal integrity through the filters. I could put up some equations with filter frequencies and R and C values to prove all this stuff, but that would require a lot of confusing equations and not much real-life applicability. It would also be testing portions of my brain I shut off long ago.

Actually im well aware of that. The reason i didnt explain the difference between a cathode follower and a phase inverter for him is it would have done nothing but confuse him. My point was some people will refer to V4 in his amp as a PI and some will refer to it as a cathode follower either way its the same position.

Ive read the stuff Myles Rose has written about the PI slot I once had a long conversation with Doug Roccaforte about it and you are right people wont come to an agreement about it.

 

[Burruss]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Also a D60 owner, the thread is awesome!!! I know nothing about the "guts" of the amp, but according to my research and experience, if your cab doesn't say VHT or Fryette on it, the sound wont be as good. For whatever reason, these heads are picky about what cabs they like and which ones they don't. So if you have access to a VHT cab somewhere, it might be worth your time to try one out.

 

[mwalluk]

Re: How to enhance my tone and how the V spots react to my amp?

Also a D60 owner, the thread is awesome!!! I know nothing about the "guts" of the amp, but according to my research and experience, if your cab doesn't say VHT or Fryette on it, the sound wont be as good. For whatever reason, these heads are picky about what cabs they like and which ones they don't. So if you have access to a VHT cab somewhere, it might be worth your time to try one out.

It's more so speakers than it is cab. Though dimensions do play a role.

Also did you retube your amp at all? If so, what did you have luck with?