How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

What do you gain from doing it?

Bill

Seriously? I had kind of expected some better reasoning than that.
To me, it's akin to building a guitar without tuning machines. Just a clamp to hold the strings. Then you tell the customer that it should sound just fine as long as you use our particular set of strings that we matched to the guitar.

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[dystrust]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

Boogie's do not have a pot for bias, they are factory set. Some people have installed a bias pot. I think back to the 80's Mesa has used the same factory bias point. I can buy a new Mesa tube and it works in my MarkIIb.
I have used tubestore.com. They have been good to me so when I buy tubes I go to them for sure.

I hate to break it to you, but the bias points aren't the same. Those new tubes will work in your Mark II, but they won't last anywhere near as long as they should because your Mark II runs the tubes a lot hotter than a Rectifier does. You can't get them from Mesa, but several other vendors will sell 6L6s that will bias properly in your Mark II.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

Demanic, love your posts.

Here's the deal...the whole point IS...what do you gain from adding bias pots to a Mesa amp? Not a thing, in my experience.

Uh well gee...you can use any kind of tube. Yep, you can go buy a set of tubes from another vendor and fix 'em right up! Keeping in mind of course that, this vendor may have bought those tubes from Mesa...tubes that Mesa REJECTED because they were weak, noisy, microphonic, etc. BRILLIANT! (Not!)

You can pay a tech to install the bias pots! Real cost saver there! Now you have to PAY...AGAIN, AND AGAIN AND AGAIN...to rebias your amp every damn time you need new tubes! It adds up over time...personally I'd rather spend my money on cool gear, or flowers for my girl...anything but paying someone to re-bias an amp that didn't need it in the first place!

Go ahead...buy a brand new Mesa amp and install adjustable bias pots. Congrats...you just voided your FIVE YEAR TRANSFERABLE WARRANTY! Not worth the risk in my book.

Not many vendors will warranty tubes for longer than 90 days, but Mesa gives you six months, and they stand behind their tubes.

If you want the reasoning behind Smith using non-adjustable fixed bias in his amps, read his white paper on the Mesa website. I trust Randy Smith and his years of experience building amps a lot more than some newb jerk-face back-water "tech" trying to sell me a biasing job.

Like I asked...what is there to gain...what is the benefit...of adding adjustable bias pots to a Mesa amp?

And if there's no benefit...well sounds like a foolish and dumb waste of time and money to me.

Respectfully yours,

Bill

 

[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

Well, that's better.
I won't be buying a Mesa any time soon for a variety of reasons.
I can only say how displeased that I was when I discovered that my old Carvin was a fixed non adjustable bias setup. And that the amp came biased cold from the factory.
I used to work on cars way back when (you actually could). I can remember all sorts of tuning options, from changing the timing and the carb ventuires, to boring the cylinders and milling the heads.
I equate adjusting the bias to adjusting the carburetor. I shouldn't have to tear down the whole engine to do it. It should come from the factory with the option to do so simply.
Haven't read the white paper on amps, so I can't speak to that.

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[Gtrjunior]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I bias my own amps

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

Well, that's better.
I won't be buying a Mesa any time soon for a variety of reasons.
I can only say how displeased that I was when I discovered that my old Carvin was a fixed non adjustable bias setup. And that the amp came biased cold from the factory.
I used to work on cars way back when (you actually could). I can remember all sorts of tuning options, from changing the timing and the carb ventuires, to boring the cylinders and milling the heads.
I equate adjusting the bias to adjusting the carburetor. I shouldn't have to tear down the whole engine to do it. It should come from the factory with the option to do so simply.
Haven't read the white paper on amps, so I can't speak to that.

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And so many people futzed around with carburetors that didn't know what they were doing...getting poor gas mileage and increased emissions, that the car makers started building cars with computer-controlled ignition timing and fuel mixtures, that give more power and run cleaner. Hmmm. Cant think of any modern cars with carburetors.

Maybe Randy Smith's years of rebuilding Mercedes-Benz engines influenced his amp theories and designs.

I do understand tinkering and customizing things though most manufactures would rather you didn't, mostly due to reliability issues. Lots of guys like light triggers on their handguns, and they're great until you shoot yourself in the nuts, "accidentally". Never had a problem with a Dell computer, but the computer a "wizard" built for me out of the BEST parts was a nightmare and crashed constantly. And so on...

I've had much more success with stock G&L Legacys than modded strats, and I played a bunch of BF and SF Fenders, Music Man, SUNN and Marshalls becore I bought my first Mesa. And that Mark III put a smile on my face like no other brand...as have the rest of the Mesas I've bought.

I'm not a tech...hell, I'm not that great a guitar player. But when people start coming up to me and telling me how great I sound...players and civilians both...I figure I'm onto something. I found my tone, and I've been off than merry-go-round quest for the amp of the month for nearly 25 years.

And when maintenance is easy, cheap and simple, hey I'm IN.

As always YMMV.

Bill

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

So let me see if I understand this correctly: Mesa/Boogie will sell me an amp, and they will sell me tubes they guarantee will work in it. Sounds like capitalism to me. Sounds like they are selling a complete solution.

 

[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

So let me see if I understand this correctly: Mesa/Boogie will sell me an amp, and they will sell me tubes they guarantee will work in it. Sounds like capitalism to me. Sounds like they are selling a complete solution.

Sure, and feel free to buy it. To me, it's like buying a Ferrari, but only being able to buy gas at certain stations. Or you void the warranty.

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[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

Like I said, if that's what you want, I wouldn't stop you from buying it.

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[Little Pigbacon]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I’ve got a Marshall for when I want to worry about cathode followers and whether a certain tube will self destruct there.

 

[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I’ve got a Marshall for when I want to worry about cathode followers and whether a certain tube will self destruct there.

I've got a Jet City Picovalve, since I couldn't afford a THD Bivalve.

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[dystrust]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I’ve got a Marshall for when I want to worry about cathode followers and whether a certain tube will self destruct there.

Pretty sure that Rectos also have a cathode follower since they're basically Mesa's take on an SLO which has a preamp very much based on a Marshall 2203/2204. Luckily Mesa 12AX7s are Chinese which are fine as a cathode follower.

I'm with Demanic on the Mesa-branded tube issue. They choose their tubes for durability and warranty as opposed to tonal quality, and I can't say that I care for how they sound. I have a few laying around and I use them as cathode followers and effects loop buffers because those positions have very little effect on the overall tone of an amp.

 

[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I suppose that I'm not the type of person who would get on a guitar forum if I didn't like to mod things from stock.

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[allbutromeo]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I'm with Demanic on the Mesa-branded tube issue. They choose their tubes for durability and warranty as opposed to tonal quality, and I can't say that I care for how they sound. I have a few laying around and I use them as cathode followers and effects loop buffers because those positions have very little effect on the overall tone of an amp.

And this is why i like dealers like the tube store. Ive used a few different brands and they always test at or very near the same specs as Mesa branded tubes, when I request it, and I've never had any issues. I did have a set from tube depot fail, and they may or may not have been out of spec, but i still got a year+ out of them first

 

[dystrust]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I bias my own amps

So do I. The only one that I've experimented on a lot is my 2555, and I definitely have a preference there. When using EL-34s I like them biased at 35-36ma per tube; any hotter and the bass gets hard to control, much colder and it loses bass and gets brittle bright. Mesa's fixed bias is quite cold for tube reliability, and I can't say that I care for how that makes an amp sound.

I suppose that I'm not the type of person who would get on a guitar forum if I didn't like to mod things from stock.

Every time I see a thread with someone selling a guitar because they don't like the electronics, I can't help but think to myself "Why are you here?".

 

[dystrust]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

And this is why i like dealers like the tube store. Ive used a few different brands and they always test at or very near the same specs as Mesa branded tubes, when I request it, and I've never had any issues. I did have a set from tube depot fail, and they may or may not have been out of spec, but i still got a year+ out of them first

+1

There are several vendors online that test their tubes as well or better than Mesa does. For power tubes I like Apex matched JJs because I can swap in an identically rated set without a rebias if I need to do so in a hurry. For preamp tubes I like to order from Eurotubes for JJs or Doug's tube's otherwise because of how thoroughly they test their tubes and for the warranties they offer.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I suppose that I'm not the type of person who would get on a guitar forum if I didn't like to mod things from stock.

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I like to mod things, too, but I don’t mod just to do it. For it to make sense for me, there has to be a certain balance of risk, cost, and benefit.

 

[Demanic]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

Yes. I stopped modding things just to do so in my 40's.
Even so, the bias of power tubes in an amp is integral to it's tone.
I won't knowingly, ever again, buy an amp that makes biasing it more difficult than changing the timing belt on an old Dodge 318.

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[Jacew]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

I don't understand reasoning here either.

You know, if your amp has bias pot that doesn't mean you you have to use it. You can use only matched tubes just as well.

By removing the possibility Mesa is simply forcing you to void the warranty or relying on them. As a customer I'd be very offended by that.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: How to ID el84's actual mfg, not who rebranded them

And this is why i like dealers like the tube store. Ive used a few different brands and they always test at or very near the same specs as Mesa branded tubes, when I request it, and I've never had any issues. I did have a set from tube depot fail, and they may or may not have been out of spec, but i still got a year+ out of them first

The Tube store, tube depot (my personal favorite), Doug, eurotubes.....ALL of them are phenomenal retailers. I have bought from all of them and never once have I had an issue.

I “get” the Mesa thinking with using their tubes. And I think a plug and play set of power tubes sounds like a great idea in the surface. But I feel like in practice it’s probably not as convenient as it all sounds.
I like to experiment with different tubes and tinker with tone. To me that’s fun.
I don’t want to have to search for the right retailer to buy one particular set of tubes....then they go out of business and I can’t find the right ones...it really sounds like more of a hassle than anything.