HSS wiring advice please

[eclecticsynergy]

Will be rewiring an HSS superstrat type once I've repainted it. Ideally, here's what I'd like:

500K volume pot, but the two singles see 250K
one tone for the bridge, one for both singles
autosplit in position 2

A) Can that be done with a standard 5-way?
B) If not, could it be done with a tone for the bridge and one for just the neck, or does autosplit make that impractical?
C) Could it be done if I simplify and just go with a 250K volume?

I do have a Superswitch on hand but it's intended for another guitar.

Thanks for your advice

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Using a standard 5 way switch, you cannot get a tone pot active for the bridge pup without some kind of compromise. Even when there is no autosplit involved. Using a 250k pot vs 500k pot also doesn't help make it possible.

[edit]: there are more restrictions because of the auto split consuming Pole 2 of the switch. So i revised the summar of restrictions below on that basis.

The compromise is either:

A) Position 3 (middle alone) without a tone control

B) Position 5 (neck alone) without a tone control, and Position 2 (bridge & middle) has 2 tone pots active.


Making the singles see 250K is done by adding a 500k resistor that run to ground from where *each* of the middle and neck pickup Hot wires get connected to the 5 way. i.e. one resistor for each pup.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

^You can wire the two pots:
(a) bridge and neck
(b) middle.

It's just a matter of how you wire up the "tone" side of the 5-way switch.

On the presumption you're not using bridge and neck together it means there's only one active pickup connected to one pot at any one time.

I've tried the 4th option and it works. The only downsides I can see is that the controls are a bit odd.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

l
On the presumption you're not using bridge and neck together it means there's only one active pickup connected to one pot at any one time.
[/ATTACH]

1. That's an accurate statement for Positions 1, 3 and 5. But not true for Positions 2 or 4, depending on which of the 3 non-conventional schemes is chosen.

2. None of thosd are applicable in this case anyways, because thr OP wrote in his original post that he wants the Bridge Humbucker autosplit in Position 2. That will consume the 2nd pole of the 5 way switch.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

1. That's an accurate statement for Positions 1, 3 and 5. But not true for Positions 2 or 4, depending on which of the 3 non-conventional schemes is chosen.

2. None of thosd are applicable in this case anyways, because thr OP wrote in his original post that he wants the Bridge Humbucker autosplit in Position 2. That will consume the 2nd pole of the 5 way switch.

Yah, I thought autosplit might make things complicated with the tone wiring.

Question - if I wired it as in diagram #3 above for combined neck/middle tone, couldn't I feed the bridge tone pot right off the pickup's hot lead where it connects to the switch? That should leave the 2nd lug availabe for autosplit. Or am I overlooking something?

Of course, both tone pots would then be active in position 2, but that's my least-used position and I could deal with it.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

You can connect a tone pot to ONE input,, but if you try connecting it to two inputs on the "input" side you'll short the inputs to each other so that both are on.

For example, fit one tone control to the bridge on the input side of the switch that's fine. It will work when the bridge is connected in P-1 and P-2, and like the pickup itself, it will be disconnected in P-3 onwards. If, however, you jump the second tone to to the middle and neck, on the input side, you'll make the neck hot in P-2, and the middle hot in P-5.

The way the switching works is to jump the common or output lug on the bottom left lug in my pictures to the common or input lug on the right side of the switch. This then connects to the Tone pots as wired and as needed on the right side of the switch, without affecting the output to the volume pot.

For coil splitting, auto or not, the "middle" wires have to be connected to a switchable ground. If you connect a ground to the free lug in diagram 3 above, you'll ground the hot out in that position.

If you want an auto split you'll need a 5-way superswitch, using one of the four sets of lugs to ground the middle wires in that position, and that position alone.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Yah, I thought autosplit might make things complicated with the tone wiring.

Question - if I wired it as in diagram #3 above for combined neck/middle tone, couldn't I feed the bridge tone pot right off the pickup's hot lead where it connects to the switch? That should leave the 2nd lug availabe for autosplit. Or am I overlooking something?

Of course, both tone pots would then be active in position 2, but that's my least-used position and I could deal with it.

Referencing the attached diagram below:

To get a tone pot dedicated to the Brudge pup, the wire labeled A gets connected to lug labeled 1 - as shown.

After that, you have two options:
1. Connect the wire labeled B to lug labeled 3 - as shown, and you get no doubleloading in any of the 5 positions but the downside is no Tone Control active in Position 3.
2. Connect the wired labeled B to lug labeled 2, and you get a Tone Pot active for Position 3 but the downsides are no tone pot active in Position 5 and doubleloading of tone pots in Position 2.

Note the 2nd pole of the 5 way switch is not involved with the pup hot lead wires or tone wires because it needs to be allocated for tbe autosplit.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

You can connect a tone pot to ONE input,, but if you try connecting it to two inputs on the "input" side you'll short the inputs to each other so that both are on.

This is correct.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

1. That's an accurate statement for Positions 1, 3 and 5. But not true for Positions 2 or 4, depending on which of the 3 non-conventional schemes is chosen.

2. None of thosd are applicable in this case anyways, because thr OP wrote in his original post that he wants the Bridge Humbucker autosplit in Position 2. That will consume the 2nd pole of the 5 way switch.

Perhaps I want clear, but what I meant to say is that my bottom right picture:

a) In P-2 the neck isn't connected so the bridge + neck tone is only serving the neck;

b) In P-4 the bridge isn't connected, so the bridge + neck tone is only serving the neck;

c) The middle tone pot only ever serves the middle tone.

You are correct in saying you still have two active tone pots in P-2 and P-4 but how they act and how they interact is beyond me. I would think the middle tone would principally continue to serve the middle tone, and the other tone the other pickup, but there may be some interaction. I don't know for sure.

Re auto-splitting.

Unless you confine the tones to one tone for the bridge, the second for the neck OR middle (not both) you can't wire the tones to the left (as drawn) bank and leave the right bank free for auto-splitting. The reason being you'll end up shorting the connections between inputs so that one pickup will remain on when you don't want it to be. Jump the bridge and neck together and they will both be on in P-1, P-2, P-4 and P-5. Jump the middle and neck together and they will both be on in P-2, P-3 and P-4.

If you can live with just two pickups having tone controls, then:

Let's assume the humbucker is in the bridge and you wanted an autosplit in P-2, connect the "middle" lugs of the humbucker to lug #3 on the right bank(top right being #1, bottom right #4), grounding the common, or doing the reverse, would work.

If, however, you want tones for all three pickups, with two pickups sharing one tone pot AND you want auto-splitting, you'll need a super-switch.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

PS as above if you have an HSH and want coil splits in P-2 and P-4, connect both pairs of middle wires to lug #3 on the right side of the switch and grounfmd #1 (top right as drawn). You can still only use tone pots on individual pickups, however, so one pickup won't gave a tone control. For all three pickups to have tone controls you need a superswitch. Or just use a single master tone.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

For coil splitting, auto or not, the "middle" wires have to be connected to a switchable ground. If you connect a ground to the free lug in diagram 3 above, you'll ground the hot out in that position.

when the 2nd pole of the 5 way (right side) is used for autosplitting, its Common lug should never get connected to the Common of the input side (left side) of the switch. So, A) that is not how autosplitting is done, and B) because its not done that way, the problem you're concerned about will not occur.

If you want an auto split you'll need a 5-way superswitch, using one of the four sets of lugs to ground the middle wires in that position, and that position alone.

A 5 way superswitch is not required for auto-splitting, as explained in my comment directly above.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

^ I think that's what I said, or meant to...

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Yep, I knew autosplit could be done using that second lug on a standard 5-way.

Was not aware you could autosplit both bridge & neck on an HSH by connecting both series links together to the third lug.
That could be handy when I rewire an HSH Floydcaster pretty soon - I just painted its pickguard.
ThreeChordWonder, are you certain that third lug goes to ground in position 2 as well as position 4?

And thanks Jack_TriPpEr, for confirming I can run a bridge tone straight off the pickup.

I don't think running both bridge & neck to the same tone pot will be a viable solution in this case.
Rather different animals: neck & middle are vintage output singles and bridge will be a fairly robust humbucker.

So it appears I'll have to leave the middle without a tone control, like the diagram in post #7.
Or just give up and use the Superswitch after all, which might be required for the singles to see 250K
No big deal.

That's all been helpful clarifying things for me so far.

Thanks, guys.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

Now, moving on to having the singles see 250K when the volume pot is 500K:
My understanding is that the extra 470K resistor often used for this simply bypasses the volume pot.
That's correct, yes?

So if the superswitch were wired to feed one tone pot from the two singles, couldn't I just tap it there and run the resistor to ground?
Would this mess with the taper or effectiveness of the tone pot? does it matter where in the wiring the resistor shunt to ground occurs?

Most of the diagrams I've seen for Suhr type wiring use a superswitch but also call for two 470K resistors.
Am trying to figure out if using two is really necessary, and why.


There's another, less desirable option, basic simplicity: 250K volume pot & standard 5-way, with no tone control on the middle pickup.
But going with 250K would severely restrict my choices for bridge humbucker, limiting me to bright ones only.
I'd been considering something fat for this guitar - Breed, AT-1, or maybe a BBQ - but those pretty much require a 500K to preserve the highs.

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

[

 

[ThreeChordWonder]

QUOTE=eclecticsynergy;n6099535]
ThreeChordWonder, are you certain that third lug goes to ground in position 2 as well as position 4?

[/QUOTE]

I have a kosher Fender 5-way right in front of me.

Non metallic side facing me, switch lever pointing away from me.

The common lug is Lug 1, the others are 2, 3, and 4 working around ANTI clockwise.

I am referring to the contacrs / lugs on the outside of the switch.

In P-1 the wiper connects lug 1 (common) and lug 4 only.

In P-2 the wiper connects lugs 3 and 4 to the common lug, #1.

In P-3 the wiper connects lugs 1 (common) and 3 only.

In p-4 the wiper connects lugs 1 (common) to 2 and 3.

In P-5 the wiper connects lugs 1 and 2 only.

Of course you can also turn the switch the other way., so P-1 connects 1 and 4, P-2 1, 3 and 4, P-3 3 only, P-4 3 and 4, P-5 4 only.

Depending wich way round the switch is wired determines whether you ground lug 2 or lug 3. Look at your wiring and look at the switch.

if you connect the coil split wires to lug 3 (lug 1 being common and grounded(, lug 3 is connected and therefore grounded in P-2, P-3 and P-4. Only one of the two humbuckers is connected in P-2 or P-4 (in the other switch bank), neither in P-3. So yes you can connect both sets of coil split wires to lug 3, they will both be split in P-2, P-3 and P-4, much like the central pickup is active in all three positions, but the humbuckers you want on or off will be turned on or off by the hot wire connections on the other switch bank.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

QUOTE=eclecticsynergy;n6099535]
ThreeChordWonder, are you certain that third lug goes to ground in position 2 as well as position 4?

I have a kosher Fender 5-way right in front of me.

Non metallic side facing me, switch lever pointing away from me.

The common lug is Lug 1, the others are 2, 3, and 4 working around ANTI clockwise.

I am referring to the contacrs / lugs on the outside of the switch.

In P-1 the wiper connects lug 1 (common) and lug 4 only.

In P-2 the wiper connects lugs 3 and 4 to the common lug, #1.

In P-3 the wiper connects lugs 1 (common) and 3 only.

In p-4 the wiper connects lugs 1 (common) to 2 and 3.

In P-5 the wiper connects lugs 1 and 2 only.

Of course you can also turn the switch the other way., so P-1 connects 1 and 4, P-2 1, 3 and 4, P-3 3 only, P-4 3 and 4, P-5 4 only.

Depending wich way round the switch is wired determines whether you ground lug 2 or lug 3. Look at your wiring and look at the switch.

if you connect the coil split wires to lug 3 (lug 1 being common and grounded(, lug 3 is connected and therefore grounded in P-2, P-3 and P-4. Only one of the two humbuckers is connected in P-2 or P-4 (in the other switch bank), neither in P-3. So yes you can connect both sets of coil split wires to lug 3, they will both be split in P-2, P-3 and P-4, much like the central pickup is active in all three positions, but the humbuckers you want on or off will be turned on or off by the hot wire connections on the other switch bank.

Cool. Might wind up using lugs 2 & 4 separately for that particular HSH though. It'd be nice having a mini toggle to split just the neck.
Or maybe have the toggle split both hums at once. I have a few weeks to make up my mind about that one.
Either way, glad to know about the lug 3 option. Thanks for that.

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

I don't think running both bridge & neck to the same tone pot will be a viable solution in this case.

The diagram I posted earlier today doesn't do that. The neck pickup never comes in contact with the tone pot that the [edit: bridge] pup uses.

FYI: While there are other folks besides me chiming in on this thread, I'm not necessarily reading everything they post .

 

[Jack_TriPpEr]

So it appears I'll have to leave the middle without a tone control, like the diagram in post #7.
Or just give up and use the Superswitch after all, which might be required for the singles to see 250K
No big deal.

I'll preface my next point as just an opinion: does Position 5 (neck pickup only) really need a tone pot? It's a pretty dark sounding tone in that position. So... i personally prefer Option 2 that I described earlier today (no tone ctl in Position 5 but yes in all other positions) vs Option 1 (no tone for Position 3).

 

[eclecticsynergy]

The diagram I posted earlier today doesn't do that. The neck pickup never comes in contact with the tone pot that the neck pup uses.

FYI: While there are other folks besides me chiming in on this thread, I'm not necessarily reading everything they post .

Yep, was responding ThreeChordWonder who was describing diagram #4 in the pic he'd posted upthread, where neck & bridge share a tone pot.

I do understand you aren't reading everything and I appreciate your input.

Your diagram in post #7 was clear and helpful. It confirmed that I can tap a tone pot directly from the pickup connections and it also shows the simple autosplit I was looking for.

Thanks man.