I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

[Gtrjunior]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

They are indeed as responsive, but you get out of them what you put in them. They aren't devices if you don't obsess about the tone, since you can go into all sorts of detail.

That’s probably been the biggest problem for me with the modelers I have used in the past....way too much editing detail.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

...love 10" speakers for their responsiveness....
keeping my tube amps...

I'm a 4*10 nut in all environments- tubes, hybrid, modeling- With my rigs, they all get tighter, thicker bass with less mud in the middle and clear high end-

 

[LesStrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

The thing you have to realize with a modeler is that what you are hearing is a model of a mic’d amp that has been recorded. You are hearing what it sounds like when you mic the amp and run it into the PA or a recording.

It’s not a full stack standing behind you.

 

[devastone]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

*EDIT* 3 posts while I was typing a response to Dave... Also, to Les' point, you can turn off cab and mic modeling and run through a power amp and guitar speakers and probably not be able to tell you aren't playing through a real amp. But yes, part of the beauty is being able to model the whole signal chain "as recorded" and feed it through a PA or FRFR speaker.

Here's my original response to Dave's post about editing:

That's where I have a problem, I much prefer to turn a few knobs and get a tone, I honestly hate programming. I usually only have a few patches that I use and use it like a line of stompboxes with the ability to switch between a couple of amps, say a Twin and something crunchy.

Latency and feel is where I think the new modelers have come a long way, I don't notice any latency with the GT-1K, not that I consciously did with the 100, and the models sound great. Again, I haven't tried the Helix, Headrush, or Fractal, and only played with an Amplifirebox briefly so others can tell you more about those. While they all are a little different to program, I think the approach on the Boss is a little more differen but it's not that hard to grasp after spending a little time with it.

I was really on the fence between building a new pedalboard around a AMT or similar preamp pedal or just sucking it up and buying a GT/Helix/Headrush, but the all-in-one just makes life so much easier, and after the Prymaxe discount, I would spend at least that as much or more putting together a pedalboard if I shopped carefully and scoured ebay/Reverb. It's just harder to cough it up in one chunk (for me anyway).

 

[Jacew]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

The thing you have to realize with a modeler is that what you are hearing is a model of a mic’d amp that has been recorded. You are hearing what it sounds like when you mic the amp and run it into the PA or a recording.

It’s not a full stack standing behind you.

This is exactly the reason I don't like them. It's too perfect if you go too far.

One could tweak the modeler to use it like regular amp though.

When used to create tones of their own rather than emulate something else, I very much appreciate them.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

The thing you have to realize with a modeler is that what you are hearing is a model of a mic’d amp that has been recorded. You are hearing what it sounds like when you mic the amp and run it into the PA or a recording.

It’s not a full stack standing behind you.

Les, I think others have made this point, but to be clear, there are other approaches...

My big rig is 130w Music Man 4x10. I use gt10 for fx for clean with cabinet emulation off and mic the cab, so it is a big amp behind me.

It is nice to move a lot of air, and nice to use the pedal to blend in crunch and get all those mid tones that are wonderful for blues and rock.

And it does feel different from small gigs where I run the gt straight to the board with emulation back on.

But, as mentioned at top, it doesnt matter in the mix... With good FOH it's nearly impossible for ME to tell which configuration was recorded unless I solo the track.

Audience has no clue and thats all that matters for me in the end.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

And as much as I enjoy the tube vs model discussions(because I love both), my original point was in a totally different direction...

I was surprised that in this case that models interacted so well... I had assumed that stacking modelers would degrade the sound. In this case the sound was enhanced.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[justFred]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

So (it goes something like this) back in ’65 Les Paul runs across Jimi Hendrix at a roadhouse in NJ. Mr. Paul was blown away by the sounds this guy was getting out of a guitar. He tried to go back later and talk to him but the bartender fired him for being too loud. Hendrix would have likely been signed to a record contract before he went off to England based on Les Paul being impressed by not just his playing but the variety of sounds he was able to get out of a rig.
Listening the three Hendrix completed studio albums…it’s not just being fast or melodic or revolutionary compositions….although all of this is there…it is about the sounds he squeezed out of the equipment of the day…he pushed the envelope to the limits and did it so elegantly unless you’re paying close attention you’ll miss it.
That is why a little guitar noodler like me needs a Fractal type machine…want to keep moving forward with expanding my sonic stuff but don’t have anywhere close to the talent to get there without a tool like this…
So, that is one reason I can think of to go for a modeling device….

 

[Mincer]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

That is why a little guitar noodler like me needs a Fractal type machine…want to keep moving forward with expanding my sonic stuff but don’t have anywhere close to the talent to get there without a tool like this…
So, that is one reason I can think of to go for a modeling device….

This is exactly why I originally got mine. I am not into sounding like anyone, and I genuinely don't mind trying to get the sounds out of my head and into my ears. I also don't dig loud stage volumes.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Bingo!

That is why a little guitar noodler like me needs a Fractal type machine…want to keep moving forward with expanding my sonic stuff but don’t have anywhere close to the talent to get there without a tool like this…
So, that is one reason I can think of to go for a modeling device….

And Bingo!

This is exactly why I originally got mine. I am not into sounding like anyone, and I genuinely don't mind trying to get the sounds out of my head and into my ears. I also don't dig loud stage volumes.

Perfect cases for modeling!

And my 6l6, EL84 and EL34's are also wonderful-

For me, it's not a religion- it's what gets the job done under extremely different circumstances...

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Les, I think others have made this point, but to be clear, there are other approaches...

My big rig is 130w Music Man 4x10. I use gt10 for fx for clean with cabinet emulation off and mic the cab, so it is a big amp behind me.

It is nice to move a lot of air, and nice to use the pedal to blend in crunch and get all those mid tones that are wonderful for blues and rock.

And it does feel different from small gigs where I run the gt straight to the board with emulation back on.

But, as mentioned at top, it doesnt matter in the mix... With good FOH it's nearly impossible for ME to tell which configuration was recorded unless I solo the track.

Audience has no clue and thats all that matters for me in the end.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

See, now this matters to me.
I have read a lot of responses about modelers where people say “well, the audience can’t tell the difference”.
All due respect to anyone that feels that way but for me, I don’t give a crap what the audience can tell.....I want the the right tone for ME....I’m a tone chaser for MY satisfaction. It’s not one bit so some drunks in a bar on a Saturday night can or can’t tell.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

See, now this matters to me.
I have read a lot of responses about modelers where people say “well, the audience can’t tell the difference”.
All due respect to anyone that feels that way but for me, I don’t give a crap what the audience can tell.....I want the the right tone for ME....I’m a tone chaser for MY satisfaction. It’s not one bit so some drunks in a bar on a Saturday night can or can’t tell.

Ah, we've got different audiences, eh?

If we don't sound good, we don't get callbacks, our name doesn't get passed around and frankly we would be gigless- 95% of our gigs come from other gigs. We gave up bars years ago because the drunk audiences didn't generate new gigs (among all the other 'challenges' of bars)

As far as feel, I love my tubes when I can have them. But if the set is moving and we're having fun and everyone is in the pocket, I'm not thinking about where the sound is coming from- I'm thinking about staying in the groove and what comes next and can we extend this puppy another 2 minutes because this is great?

Interesting sidebar, FOH engineer recently asked me to thin out my crunch tone- as and redblooded guitarist will do, I had it as thick and fat and warm as I could get it- But he was having to EQ the crud out of it to get it to sit in the mix and then my clean tones were too nasal-

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Ah, we've got different audiences, eh?

If we don't sound good, we don't get callbacks, our name doesn't get passed around and frankly we would be gigless- 95% of our gigs come from other gigs. We gave up bars years ago because the drunk audiences didn't generate new gigs (among all the other 'challenges' of bars)

As far as feel, I love my tubes when I can have them. But if the set is moving and we're having fun and everyone is in the pocket, I'm not thinking about where the sound is coming from- I'm thinking about staying in the groove and what comes next and can we extend this puppy another 2 minutes because this is great?

Interesting sidebar, FOH engineer recently asked me to thin out my crunch tone- as and redblooded guitarist will do, I had it as thick and fat and warm as I could get it- But he was having to EQ the crud out of it to get it to sit in the mix and then my clean tones were too nasal-

Don’t misunderstand me, I didn’t say I sound bad. TBH, my Quickrod doesn’t have a bad tone in it. And if I’m being possibly a little bold, I’ll go so far as to say that in my local scene there aren’t too many guys that have better tone than me.
My point was that I have great tone...because I want great tone for my satisfaction not for the satisfaction of an audience. Of course I want to sound good but it’s for me (and he band) first and foremost.


As far as your comment about the FOH guy...
Isn’t it his job to make the FOH mix work? It’s not your job to change your tone for him. It’s the other way around. Just my opinion of course.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Isn’t it his job to make the FOH mix work? It’s not your job to change your tone for him. It’s the other way around. Just my opinion of course.

Great point- usually I think the same, but he made a good case-
My really big rig (really my studio rig) currently is a Streetrod (clean) that I fade into a Peavy Classic (warm crunch) and back to the splawn(Ch2) for extreme crunch- With that rig, the same engineer ran 3 mics so he could eq all 3 timbres. Works wonderfully and he's done similar tricks with my smaller rigs-

The challenge, is in this venue, he doesn't have extra channels and I'm fading between a very clean delay channel and a massive crunch tone- The clean and the middle tones all work well, but I really fattened that crunch to the point that he would have to heavy EQ to get it back in the mix and that would kill the clean tones- I fade from clean to crunch in many songs, no way he could chase the EQ live.

 

[Jacew]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

So (it goes something like this) back in ’65 Les Paul runs across Jimi Hendrix at a roadhouse in NJ. Mr. Paul was blown away by the sounds this guy was getting out of a guitar. He tried to go back later and talk to him but the bartender fired him for being too loud. Hendrix would have likely been signed to a record contract before he went off to England based on Les Paul being impressed by not just his playing but the variety of sounds he was able to get out of a rig.
Listening the three Hendrix completed studio albums…it’s not just being fast or melodic or revolutionary compositions….although all of this is there…it is about the sounds he squeezed out of the equipment of the day…he pushed the envelope to the limits and did it so elegantly unless you’re paying close attention you’ll miss it.
That is why a little guitar noodler like me needs a Fractal type machine…want to keep moving forward with expanding my sonic stuff but don’t have anywhere close to the talent to get there without a tool like this…
So, that is one reason I can think of to go for a modeling device….

I agree. That's exactly what I do too. Never want to sound like someone else.

I just look that exactly opposite way. Lot (most?) of tonal goodness of old didn't came guitarist getting and setting up gear that allowed to do exactly what they want. They we're working around the limitations, with uncertain and sometimes "magic" results.

With modelers you might have more choices than ever, but you're still playing inside a box (albeit a very large one) it allows. There's not much room for gaining random tonal goodnes by accident.

I prefer more chaotic approach: Using my cheapskate tendencies and love for old technology to keep sonic perfectionism at bay. And trying all sorts of random stuff out of curiosity.

 

[LLL]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Now that some modeling tech is actually viable, I do both (tube and modeling).

 

[80's_Metal]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

I think that the FOH sound is exactly what's most important.

We can chase tone for our bedroom or guitar rooms all day long and find happiness, but when it comes to the mix of the band and how the audience hears it.... That should Trump all of our snobbery.

My humble 2 cents worth.

I'm glad you tried something new and it worked out for you!

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

I was really on the fence between building a new pedalboard around a AMT or similar preamp pedal or just sucking it up and buying a GT/Helix/Headrush, but the all-in-one just makes life so much easier, and after the Prymaxe discount, I would spend at least that as much or more putting together a pedalboard if I shopped carefully and scoured ebay/Reverb. It's just harder to cough it up in one chunk (for me anyway).

Best of both worlds..the AMT Stonehead :yesway:

It's so close to a great-sounding tube amp in both feel/response & tone that I seriously doubt even the most golden-eared tube-snob among us would be able to tell it was'nt a tube amp in a blind test. I don't know if it counts as a modeler though (No onboard effects & it does'nt claim to emulate anything..)..but yeah, it surprises me that the analog/SS stuff is'nt more popular. I think it does a hell of a job coming close to tube feel & response these days. Even the little Hotone amps (only played the Heart Attack personally) are shockingly on the mark. The heart Attack comes the closest I've heard anything come to a Dual Recto..it's absolutely authentic, right down to the feel, just way softer..

 

[justFred]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Fractal AXE-FX II can't do 5E3...no 12AY7 in the thing...kept trying and wondering why their 5E3 didn't sound quite right...looked at the preamp tube and it is a 12AX7...BIG DIFFERENCE!!!but I have a 5E3 so I will probably survive...

 

[LesStrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

The main reason I went with the Helix instead of Fractal is that the user interface is quite user friendly. Plus, I do all of my programming on the unit.

Both are viable tools.

I use modelers because cause I need a wide variety of tones that are easily accessed during a gig. I am the lead vocalist in my band, and I don’t have time for a pedal dance.