I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

I jumped into the modeling world slowly, first using a guitar power amp and guitar cabs. Now I am going direct and using in-ear monitors. There is a lot less to bring to a show, the stage is a lot cleaner looking, the onstage sound is pretty quiet, and it is much easier to mix FOH. I love not having to lug heavy amps, even if i still like the way my amps sound.

Mincer, every bit of that is true- exactly why I got into modeling in the first place and 60% of my gigs are modeled as a result-

But (and this is a big but), when I have the opportunity to take the tubes out (stage support, good FOH, etc), I still do and I recognize that this is pure ego and 'sound for me'- There is something to be said about that big wall of air moving by.

But, as we've discussed before, I know that none of this is necessary for a good sound- The FOH guy is going to have to EQ out most of the thickness that makes it fun for me and has to deal with stage spill into the mix and the rest of the band has to compete with monitors.

So I'm being greedy and stubborn- but what I like about your scenario is that you really can only get all of your alternative tones with modeling- so your back is going to last a lot longer than mine

 

[dystrust]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Interesting, no explanation, just interesting. On of the best tones I ever had was from a rack, and it had a MosValve power amp. It was probably the Kasha preamp, it sounded amazing, or more specifically, it worked great for me. And that was after using a Soldano Hot Rod, Mesa Mark IV, and Marshalls.

I think part of it for me was not having quite the right preamp. I'd been using an ADA MP-1 (stock and Voodoo Modded) and a Soldano SP-77 into both a Marshall 9005 and Mesa Simul 395; I also tried (but never bought) a Marshall JMP-1 and the aforementioned Soldano X88R. All of the various combinations sounded good, but none of them sounded like the Jubilee 2555 that I was used to. The clean sounds from both the ADA and SP-77 were definitely better than the Jubilee, and the SP-77's lead channel was pure Soldano, but they weren't quite the tone I was after. I'll admit the feel was one of those last 2-5% things and a lot of people could've been perfectly happy with the rack, but I wasn't one of them.

 

[Hank-]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

There isn't really a right or wrong choice if something works in a given situation for a certain application. The problem of touch sensitivity did appear in older digital units, but lately so many things have been introduced in the market that the dynamics related issue isn't a major concern like it used to be. Presently its become more about ease of use & portability/weight, there are certain price points now at which more devices have become available as an option to choose from. Choose what works & makes the playing experience joyful rather than a drag, tube based or not, it doesn't matter.

 

[Sirion]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

The closest I've come to that comparison was a Soldano X88 & SM100 vs both an SLO and a couple Hot Rods at a Soldano dealer near here about 15 years ago. The tone was almost identical between the heads and rack, but the heads had a more immediate, responsive feel while the rack just seemed a bit detached. I've built a few racks over the years and none of them had the same sort of response as a good tube head. Honestly it was a significant factor in why I was never happy with my tone from a rack system.

I'm sort of the other way around. I definitely agree that there is a slight difference in feel. I find that heads are slightly more responsive, but lack a certain fullness, evenness and fluidity that rack systems have. I have been trying to adapt to combos after playing rack systems for years, and whilst the sounds are good making the transition is slightly awkward for this reason: there is a slight difference to how you have to approach the notes. Being able to use a head/combo is good, but I honestly think I prefer the rack feel. (It doesn't help my GAS for a good Soldano, though!)

 

[dystrust]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

I'm sort of the other way around. I definitely agree that there is a slight difference in feel. I find that heads are slightly more responsive, but lack a certain fullness, evenness and fluidity that rack systems have. I have been trying to adapt to combos after playing rack systems for years, and whilst the sounds are good making the transition is slightly awkward for this reason: there is a slight difference to how you have to approach the notes. Being able to use a head/combo is good, but I honestly think I prefer the rack feel. (It doesn't help my GAS for a good Soldano, though!)

That's pretty much exactly it.

What drew me to racks in the first was place was the ability to have tons of sounds available with no tap dancing, and I was able to make most changes with a single button push. Some of the sounds I really liked; especially the ADA MP-1 solid state clean sound, but I was never able to dial in a crunchy rhythm sound I liked as much as my 2555. The solution for me ended up being a pedal board for the 2555 / 2525H that could cop those few rack sounds I liked better while minimizing tap dancing.

 

[Demanic]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

So, out of this entire community, I'm the only one rocking a Spidervalve eh?
'Figures.

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[ErikH]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

I dove head first in to modeling. When my Marshall head's power transformer blew, I needed an amp and bought a Vox AD50VT. Used it for 10 years. Once the Marshall was fixed, it was gigged with here and there, mainly outdoors, but the main gigging amp was the Vox. I sold that Vox a couple years ago and bought another Vox, the AV30. It's an analog modeler with 3 digital effects. The 5 button footswitch is great for gigging. I can switch between the two channels, turn each effect on/off and tap tempo for the delay. There's also an effects loop, headphone out and aux in. It is a LOUD 30 watts from a SS style amp. Can keep up with an aggressive acoustic-kit drummer no problem. At home I use AmpliTube on an older iPhone through headphones for quiet practicing. I'd use it at a gig if I needed to, I wouldn't have footswitching though because I don't have the IK bluetooth board.

Yes, modeling has come a long way. It's to the point with some of the units, like the Helix and Axe FX, that it's really hard to tell between the modeler and an analog amp. All the touch and feel is there. Manufacturers have really listened to the players and put the R&D in to make this progress. Do I miss my tube amps? Sometimes, yeah. But they aren't practical for my needs these days.

 

[Artie]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

So when I found what was at one time a top of the line modeler combined with a power amp designed by Bogner, for less than $400, I took it.

I'm in a similar situation with my Bogner Alchemist. I believe Line 6 just does the reverb/delay section. Sounds great.

For me, as more of a hobbyist than a pro, the modeler really fits into a home studio/bedroom environment. Having a huge tone palette at your finger tips, for not a lot of space and money is nice. Having said that, I find that I use my Bogner almost exclusively now while my modelers collect dust.

P. S. Can someone remind me what the "FOH" acronym stands for?

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

P. S. Can someone remind me what the "FOH" acronym stands for?

Front of house... Primary engineer in charge of sound in venue as opposed to recording or monitoring engineers... Can all be 1 in the same in small venue.



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[justFred]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

with current tech modelers you can for all practical purposes get your tube amp sound (and many others) from your modeler...your tube amp will sound like your tube amp...
with my song book...MJ Hurt, Otis Rush, Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page making the bulk of it...no bid deal....can throw a couple of pedals in the back of my PRRI, grab my Strat and go...

The big change switching from tube to modeling amp or visa versa is the wardrobe....
for example:
tube amp look:


Modeling amp look:

 

[LLL]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Front of house... Primary engineer in charge of sound in venue as opposed to recording or monitoring engineers... Can all be 1 in the same in small venue.



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Exactly.

To add (because it seems that many aren't aware) - it takes a lot more than just a guitarist with his guitar, amp & effects to produce palatable guitar sounds for the masses (let alone an album) - it takes sound engineers and studio geeks...

...it takes a village. :lol:

 

[LLL]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

92072[/ATTACH]

Modeling amp look:
View attachment 92073

QFT (quoted for truth)

Although when I use my Positive Grid BIAS, I find myself wearing a bowtie and propeller hat.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Exactly.

To add (because it seems that many aren't aware) - it takes a lot more than just a guitarist with his guitar, amp & effects to produce palatable guitar sounds for the masses (let alone an album) - it takes sound engineers and studio geeks...

...it takes a village. [emoji38]

So true-
To prove it, the next time you are in a big venue or in the studio, see if you can get an engineer to solo a guitar part in the mix- A good engineer will have shelved the frequencies above and below to make room for the rest of the instruments- not the big fat, all encompassing sound that we're used to, but it works wonderfully in the mix.

 

[Artie]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Thanks guys. I've seen that acronym come up a bunch of times, and didn't have a clue.

 

[ErikH]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

In the past I've actually had other players in a few different instances, more so with the AV30, what tubes I'm running in it...LOL. When I told them it's a modeler with two 12AX7's in starved plate mode they didn't believe me..lol.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

In the past I've actually had other players in a few different instances, more so with the AV30, what tubes I'm running in it...LOL. When I told them it's a modeler with two 12AX7's in starved plate mode they didn't believe me..lol.

oooh, low voltage 12ax7s are cool creatures- what you got? I just went the other direction with high voltage Blasckstar dual overdrive, but the low volt version also received great reviews.

Also, I think your example is more evidence that we are very visual people who 'see' what they like- we could probably settle the model vs tubes vs SS vs hybrid debates with a well designed double blind study

 

[ErikH]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

oooh, low voltage 12ax7s are cool creatures- what you got? I just went the other direction with high voltage Blasckstar dual overdrive, but the low volt version also received great reviews.

Also, I think your example is more evidence that we are very visual people who 'see' what they like- we could probably settle the model vs tubes vs SS vs hybrid debates with a well designed double blind study

It's a Vox AV30. Like I mentioned in a previous post, all analog modeling with 3 digital effects.

https://www.voxamps.com/AVSeries

 

[zionstrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Ah, I had its little cousin the stomplab2 and wish I had kept it... Great fx in a really small expresion pedal for $80... gotta be one of the best tone to $ ratios of all times...

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[LesStrat]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

Even if I use the same amp models and effects all the time, the Helix remains a more cost effective choice.

There are amp models in the Helix that I never use. So what?

There are effects that I never use. Again, so what?

20 years ago my mother got an Alesis QS8. She felt bad about only using one piano sound, when the instrument has over 1200 tones. I pointed out that she spent 1/2 the cost of a spinet to buy the Alesis.

How many of you have a stomp box that you set up and haven’t adjusted in ages? Why not? After all, it has other sounds in it.

I rarely tweak my presets in the Helix. Once they’re set how I like them, I leave them alone and play.

 

[Adieu]

Re: I love tubes, but can't get over how flexible modeling has become

So true-
To prove it, the next time you are in a big venue or in the studio, see if you can get an engineer to solo a guitar part in the mix- A good engineer will have shelved the frequencies above and below to make room for the rest of the instruments- not the big fat, all encompassing sound that we're used to, but it works wonderfully in the mix.

Good mixes are no fun

If people wanted to see overproduced digital perfection, they'd go see a hollywood blockbuster.

Engineers armed with PAs are the toxins killing live raw rock n roll