I need your help! Marshall Content...

[pinto79]

I have 2 Marshalls.

Marshall 1: 1983 JCM800 2203 100 Watt head. Recently re-tubed with EH 12AX7s tested and selected for each position, and Tesla EL34's, tested and matched for optimal operation.

Marshall 2: 2008 1959RR Randy Rhoads Signature, 100 Watt. Stock.

I have a couple of 4x12s that sound pretty good, one is Celestion loaded and the other is a Sunn with G12T-75 voiced speakers in it.

I can't get a decent reasonably crisp/tight tone out of either of the heads. The Rhoads is worlds better, but really not doing it for me as a whole.

Back in the day, I had a 2204 that I could push with any pedal I wanted and it always sounded amazing, but neither of these want to be pushed and just become a garbled mess.

I've tried the following OD Units:

Ibanez TS7 Tubescreamer (This one works the best with the Rhoads and I chose it over a TS9 and a TS808)

Boss DS-1, both MIT and MIJ. The MIT one is the better of these 2 particular ones that I have. They both fall short. Both sound great driving a clean amp...

Marshall DriveMaster. The old Black box one... This one works the best with the JCM800.

MXR Distortion+. An old one that has some issues... so not really a factor here.

Zoom Tri-Metal. Too brutal and A-Tonal, but I've used it a couple of times and it seems to be the solution for 2 minutes and then sounds like ass.

I've spend a small fortune on pedals in the last while trying to get things to work well and it's just not working...

Anyone have any ideas?

I'm trying to get a solid Thunk out of the bottom end and have a singing rather than nasal top.

Thanks guys!

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Which Celestions are in your Celestion-loaded cab?

A G12T-75 will accomplish the "solid Thunk" goal, but to my ear they have very crispy highs. I think you might enjoy two of those plus a pair of Vintage 30's. Best of both worlds.

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Which Celestions are in your Celestion-loaded cab?

A G12T-75 will accomplish the "solid Thunk" goal, but to my ear they have very crispy highs. I think you might enjoy two of those plus a pair of Vintage 30's. Best of both worlds.

My Celestion loaded cab has a pair of G12-35s in the bottom, top left is a G12T-75 and top right is a G12M Greenback. The 75s and V30s is exactly the end result I'm working toward...

It's an odd mix I know. I was actually running the cab in stereo tonight with the 800 powering the left side and the Rhoads powering the right side, which resulted in the best tone I've gotten out of either amp... still garbled tho.

Believe it or not, I'm getting exactly the tone I want with a JCM800 model being pushed by a Tube Screamer model in my POD XT Live running into a dual 15 band EQ and then into my Peavey Classic 50/50 into the Sunn cab and a 2x12...

My thinking is that I SHOULD be able to get a similar tone with the real deal... but I can't get it to sound right.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

A couple of questions. How are the bias settings? The bias setting can effect the articulation. I like to fine tune the bias by ear to my liking after it's ball parked mathmatically or by a scope.

Does the Rhoads run EL34's or 6550's?

There's a chance that your old 2204 had 6550's back in the day. Any master volume amp might (probably) work better for pedals with tighter, cleaner, power tubes.

I think your right about the speakers though. Green backs and especialy 35's are not as tight as the usual 65's back in the 80's. 75's have a bigger bottom and scooped mids, and that might actually work against low end articulation. Mixxing in V30's might be very helpful.

For the 1959, many usually don't like modern speakers on four input amps, because the modern speakers don't compress as much. For that amp a mix of G12H30's or eqivilant, and V30's or eqivilant might be better.

 

[Buckeyedog]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Agree with Lake Placid on the bias for the first stop and the speaker selection.

One question I would have is what amount of gain are you running on the amp and then the pedal?? Too much gain on either and you'll get a garbled compressed mess.

Set amp gain to moderate with higher power amp volume and set pedal gain to low (9:00 or 10:00) with the level set higher (2:00).

 

[JeffB]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

My thinking is that I SHOULD be able to get a similar tone with the real deal... but I can't get it to sound right.

Not necc-

Are you using the 15 band eq and TS9 on the real deal marshall?

Are you slaving the real deal marshall 800 into that power amp?

Are you using a cab sim on the 800 model on the POD? then feeding it into the EQ?

Lots of variables there.

I'd go with Bias and speakers as well first. I like 75s, but I like G12H and 65s better (and greenbacks too, but you say you already have one). In addition, Not all Marshalls are created equal-they are as individual and unique as guitar woods can be-assuming you are happy with the speaker tone in general, I'd send it to an amp specialist for some tweaking- David Bray would be my choice.

 

[J Moose]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

I have a couple of 4x12s that sound pretty good, one is Celestion loaded and the other is a Sunn with G12T-75 voiced speakers in it.


Anyone have any ideas?

I'm trying to get a solid Thunk out of the bottom end and have a singing rather than nasal top.

Thanks guys!

I'd ditch the celestion 75's and get some "real" speakers. They've always sounded scrappy & nasal to me. The other cab with the 'grab-bag' mix & match probably isn't helping much. A few years ago I tried sticking four different speakers into a 4x12 and really didn't like it. Seemed to be that the mixed time & frequency response wasn't good as a whole, the drivers were working against each other to create some massive phasing.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

My Celestion loaded cab has a pair of G12-35s in the bottom, top left is a G12T-75 and top right is a G12M Greenback. The 75s and V30s is exactly the end result I'm working toward...

It's an odd mix I know. I was actually running the cab in stereo tonight with the 800 powering the left side and the Rhoads powering the right side, which resulted in the best tone I've gotten out of either amp... still garbled tho.

Believe it or not, I'm getting exactly the tone I want with a JCM800 model being pushed by a Tube Screamer model in my POD XT Live running into a dual 15 band EQ and then into my Peavey Classic 50/50 into the Sunn cab and a 2x12...

My thinking is that I SHOULD be able to get a similar tone with the real deal... but I can't get it to sound right.

If I had a Marshall, I'd be looking at a G12T-75 and V30 blend myself. I dislike either speaker on its own, but in combination their strengths and weaknesses are a great match for a Marshall head.

 

[kmcguitars]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Not trying to be a wiseguy here, But how about selling the 2203 and buy a similar vintage 2204? To my ears 2204's sound much better. I know all the Guitar gods in the last 40 years that used Marshall's used 100 watter's, And sounded great. But for me... the 50 watter's always seem to sound better IMO?
BTW, Duane Allman was known to favor 50 watt Marshall's.:cool2:

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

I have 2 Marshalls.

Marshall 1: 1983 JCM800 2203 100 Watt head. Recently re-tubed with EH 12AX7s tested and selected for each position, and Tesla EL34's, tested and matched for optimal operation.

Marshall 2: 2008 1959RR Randy Rhoads Signature, 100 Watt. Stock.

I have a couple of 4x12s that sound pretty good, one is Celestion loaded and the other is a Sunn with G12T-75 voiced speakers in it.

I can't get a decent reasonably crisp/tight tone out of either of the heads. The Rhoads is worlds better, but really not doing it for me as a whole.

Back in the day, I had a 2204 that I could push with any pedal I wanted and it always sounded amazing, but neither of these want to be pushed and just become a garbled mess.

I've tried the following OD Units:

Ibanez TS7 Tubescreamer (This one works the best with the Rhoads and I chose it over a TS9 and a TS808)

Boss DS-1, both MIT and MIJ. The MIT one is the better of these 2 particular ones that I have. They both fall short. Both sound great driving a clean amp...

Marshall DriveMaster. The old Black box one... This one works the best with the JCM800.

MXR Distortion+. An old one that has some issues... so not really a factor here.

Zoom Tri-Metal. Too brutal and A-Tonal, but I've used it a couple of times and it seems to be the solution for 2 minutes and then sounds like ass.

I've spend a small fortune on pedals in the last while trying to get things to work well and it's just not working...

Anyone have any ideas?

I'm trying to get a solid Thunk out of the bottom end and have a singing rather than nasal top.

Thanks guys!

try vintage 30's

 

[JeffB]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Not trying to be a wiseguy here, But how about selling the 2203 and buy a similar vintage 2204? To my ears 2204's sound much better. I know all the Guitar gods in the last 40 years that used Marshall's used 100 watter's, And sounded great. But for me... the 50 watter's always seem to sound better IMO?
BTW, Duane Allman was known to favor 50 watt Marshall's.:cool2:

I understand the allure of the 100W, but I agree, the 50Ws sound better, and FWIW most of my fave marshall tones come from the guys who used the 50watters- 1987s in particular.

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

A couple of questions. How are the bias settings? The bias setting can effect the articulation. I like to fine tune the bias by ear to my liking after it's ball parked mathmatically or by a scope.

Does the Rhoads run EL34's or 6550's?

There's a chance that your old 2204 had 6550's back in the day. Any master volume amp might (probably) work better for pedals with tighter, cleaner, power tubes.

I think your right about the speakers though. Green backs and especialy 35's are not as tight as the usual 65's back in the 80's. 75's have a bigger bottom and scooped mids, and that might actually work against low end articulation. Mixxing in V30's might be very helpful.

For the 1959, many usually don't like modern speakers on four input amps, because the modern speakers don't compress as much. For that amp a mix of G12H30's or eqivilant, and V30's or eqivilant might be better.

OK, the Rhoads runs EL34s.

My old 2204 ran E34LS Groove Tubes rated to #7, which I originally wanted for this one, but was advised against. I have to find my paperwork and see what they were set to.

For the Record, all Canadian JCM800 came with EL34 tubes.

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Not necc-

Are you using the 15 band eq and TS9 on the real deal marshall?

Are you slaving the real deal marshall 800 into that power amp?

Are you using a cab sim on the 800 model on the POD? then feeding it into the EQ?

Lots of variables there.

I'd go with Bias and speakers as well first. I like 75s, but I like G12H and 65s better (and greenbacks too, but you say you already have one). In addition, Not all Marshalls are created equal-they are as individual and unique as guitar woods can be-assuming you are happy with the speaker tone in general, I'd send it to an amp specialist for some tweaking- David Bray would be my choice.

On the Real Deal, I'm running my TS7 in TS9 mode and tweaking with an EQ. Not the same one, but I work by ear so I've gotten it close. The POD runs without Cab/Mic sims, but come to think of it, I am using the Parametric EQ in addition to the Graphic EQ.

I think to REALLY know I'm going to have to get my speaker situation sorted first.

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

If I had a Marshall, I'd be looking at a G12T-75 and V30 blend myself. I dislike either speaker on its own, but in combination their strengths and weaknesses are a great match for a Marshall head.

I'm definately leaning that way for both cabs.

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Not trying to be a wiseguy here, But how about selling the 2203 and buy a similar vintage 2204? To my ears 2204's sound much better. I know all the Guitar gods in the last 40 years that used Marshall's used 100 watter's, And sounded great. But for me... the 50 watter's always seem to sound better IMO?
BTW, Duane Allman was known to favor 50 watt Marshall's.:cool2:

I've thought about this too.

I've also thought about just selling the 800 and accepting that my tone is shaped with modeling fed into a tube power amp.

I've been shaping my tone for the last 10 years since my much loved 2204 was stolen, with Line 6 gear and then discovered how much more amazing it gets with tubes pushing the speakers... and thus POD Feeds 50/50...

I wonder if yanking a pair of tubes will help at all...

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

Thanks for the ideas so far guys. All things are being considered.

 

[kmcguitars]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

I've thought about this too.

I've also thought about just selling the 800 and accepting that my tone is shaped with modeling fed into a tube power amp.

I've been shaping my tone for the last 10 years since my much loved 2204 was stolen, with Line 6 gear and then discovered how much more amazing it gets with tubes pushing the speakers... and thus POD Feeds 50/50...

I wonder if yanking a pair of tubes will help at all...

The 2203/04 circuits are almost identical. (Almost) the 1st major difference is the transformers .2nd is the rectifier circuits. The 04 uses HALF WAVE,03 uses a FULL WAVE. 3rd the input (or Bias resistor) and the NFB resistor are a lower values. I don't know exactly how these differences define any tonal variation ? But I'm guessing pulling two tubes from a 2203 would not make it sound more 2204ish?

 

[pinto79]

Re: I need your help! Marshall Content...

An updat for those who care, I talked to my amp tech. He tells me he biased the power tubes between 460 and 470 volts.

Turns out the power tubes are Ruby/Tesla E34LCZ.

Amp guy (Dave) suggested I try a SovTek in V1 instead of the EH that he installed, so I grabbed a GT-12AX7-R on my way home, and at the shop there was a used MXR Micro Amp, so I grabbed that too.

I'm using a different cab now too. This might be playing a large role. It's a 2x12 cab, wired at 4 ohms with a Peavey Sheffield 1230 and a Celestion Seventy 80.

So, the amp as it was, now plugged into the 2x12, no effects or anything. Better bottm (Most likely due to the cabinet) and same basic tone as before.

So I changed the tube. HOLY CRAP! It made an immediate 80% improvement. The tone controls are now very responsive and the gain is smoother. Huge improvement.

The TS7 added resulted better than before. The amp responds to changes of the pedals settings and I manage to quickly dial in a usable tone. I'm still thinking the TS7 is not a great match for this particular amp. Win some, lose some I guess.

I patched in the Micro Amp set about 2:00 and BINGO! There's the gain level I've been looking for. I rocked out to Sweet Child and Talk Dirty To Me to see how it works with tunes I play in the band... All is well. So I'm going to use 2 or possibly 3 of these R tubes. That's what I wanted in the first place, but with my limited knowledge of amps, I took the tech's advice. At least he's being cool and exchanging the tubes for me.

In the Rhoads, I tried the same R tube in V1 and it made a noticable but not as drastic change. This amp now responds well to the TS7 and the Mico Amp really well, and I can pile them one onto the other for a very usable rhythm tone. I'm going to do 3 of these tubes in it too.

So, now I'm on the hunt for a pair of empty 4x12 cabs and some 1230s and Seventy 80s.

Ratherdashing is looking into a couple of my pedals in an attempt to help with my tone. Thanks Matt!

All is becoming better in my world. I'll be running these bad boys in Stereo before too long.

Thanks for all the input guys!