I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

[Agileguy_101]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

So responding to the OP, yes a guitarist will sound like him or herself no matter what rig they are playing on. The perfect example of this is Spanish Fly, the second you hear it you know it is Eddie.

Here's my point - if anyone else with comparable skill played the song exactly the same as the recording, wouldn't they sound like Eddie? That song may be unique as personal technique comes through a bit more on acoustic than electric than acoustic... but substitue Eruption for Spanish Fly.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Q: If you are trying to replicate a great song, which factor would be more important:
1.) Having the original guitar, amp, pedals, and sound engineer that were used to record the song
2.) Knowing how to play the song

To replicate a song, I think knowing how to play it tops the equipment, but to replicate it like the original recording, the equipment is still a strong, near-equal factor that can't be dismissed. That doesn't mean you need all the identical equipment, I'm just saying it's a factor that needs near-equal attention to get right (e.g. using your ears to get the right sound out of the 'wrong' equipment.)

To replicate someone's sound, I think it's the inverse where the equipment tops playing style, but playing style still matters and is a factor because the intensity you strike the strings with, the dexterity, hand position, are still influential in replicating the sound. How you strike the instrument impacts how the instrument will drive the equipment to reproduce the sound.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

I'd like to see a pepsi challenge on this one. I want to see someone go buy a Peavey Rockmaster or First Act box of electric guitar junk, drive to famous guitarist's houses and have them play tunes on it.

Better yet, get a really good home musician who's learned to fake a bunch of stuff and have them and the real deal guitarist play both cheapo equipment and the guitarist's signature rig.

 

[Securb]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

To replicate a song, I think knowing how to play it tops the equipment, but to replicate it like the original recording, the equipment is still a strong, near-equal factor that can't be dismissed. That doesn't mean you need all the identical equipment, I'm just saying it's a factor that needs near-equal attention to get right (e.g. using your ears to get the right sound out of the 'wrong' equipment.)

Excuse me for using Eddie as an example again but he has used multiple guitars (Ibanez, Kramer, Steinberger, Peavey, Fender) and countless amps and he always sounds like Eddie. I think cork sniffers put more emphasis on gear than the artist they are trying to emulate. I can give Eddie a Squire Starter Pack and he will still sound better than any of us and it will still sound like VanHalen.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Excuse me for using Eddie as an example again but he has used multiple guitars (Ibanez, Kramer, Steinberger, Peavey, Fender) and countless amps and he always sounds like Eddie. I think cork sniffers put more emphasis on gear than the artist they are trying to emulate. I can give Eddie a Squire Starter Pack and he will still sound better than any of us and it will still sound like VanHalen.

ya know...
I don't think so. I'll tell ya why.

Yes, he's a virtuoso so he's got the chops, but you can't expect an F1 racer to do a fast lap of a racetrack in a 96 Geo Metro. I would actually argue (for the sake of arguing) that he may be WORSE than a VH fanboy because he's spent so much time having his play style and equipment accomodated to his particular wants and needs that getting handed a sack of sh!t with a 6in speaker attached may fail him completely. Even in terms of his touch style he'd be screwed.

I would argue that top of the line guitarists would make a sh!itkit sound as good as is possible, but many times the guitarist would be severely hampered by the equipment to the point of losing their signature sounds.

 

[dystrust]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

ya know...
I don't think so. I'll tell ya why.

Yes, he's a virtuoso so he's got the chops, but you can't expect an F1 racer to do a fast lap of a racetrack in a 96 Geo Metro. I would actually argue (for the sake of arguing) that he may be WORSE than a VH fanboy because he's spent so much time having his play style and equipment accomodated to his particular wants and needs that getting handed a sack of sh!t with a 6in speaker attached may fail him completely. Even in terms of his touch style he'd be screwed.

I would argue that top of the line guitarists would make a sh!itkit sound as good as is possible, but many times the guitarist would be severely hampered by the equipment to the point of losing their signature sounds.

You might be surprised. A few weeks ago I saw a video of Joe Satriani playing Surfing with the Alien on a cheap POS Strat through a multi effects pedal into an equally cheap SS amp. The tone wasn't pefect or anything, but he still sounded like Joe and his playing was absolutely there.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Excuse me for using Eddie as an example again but he has used multiple guitars (Ibanez, Kramer, Steinberger, Peavey, Fender) and countless amps and he always sounds like Eddie. I think cork sniffers put more emphasis on gear than the artist they are trying to emulate. I can give Eddie a Squire Starter Pack and he will still sound better than any of us and it will still sound like VanHalen.

This just reaffirmed my point. You don't need the identical equipment, you need an ear to get the right sound out of the 'wrong' equipment - which is what people with a style/identity like Eddie do when using different gear. Either adapting their playing to some degree or adjusting the equipment as necessary, but they will find a way to get their style and sound out of it.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Tone=the musical quality of your instrument and its components.
Sound=the music quality of the player with their instrument.

You can have anyone's TONE by using their gear, but that doesn't mean you'll sound like them.

Like a painter can certainly blend colors or use them lightly or boldly to influence the color of a painting, and they arrange the color into an image, but no matter how good an artist is, they cannot have one color like blue with a white canvas and expect themselves to paint red.

When I hear people say that "tone is all in the fingers" I just roll my eyes because they have a very VERY loose definition of what tone really is, and likely just want to quickly shut down an argument about gear or something. Your hands shape the tone to make the sound. The tone isn't necessarily eminating from your hands.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1nWqEACfdg

Look. There's Mr. Hetfield playing along and... Oh wait! Where did his tone go? His hands were doing the exact same thing they usually do, but his guitar malfunctioned and his tone was gone. If tone was really mostly in his hands we should hardly notice a difference right?

Regardless if a player is there to play it, tone is the quality of the instrument's timbre. Sound is where the player comes in. Gimmie Eddie's gear and I'll play Unchained. It won't sound as good, but I'll certainly have the right tone down.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

You can have anyone's TONE by using their gear, but that doesn't mean you'll sound like them.

At the risk of repeating myself too much, I'll say this again: What if you have someone's tone and play the same notes with roughly the same level of skill as the person you're emulating?

This is what I was getting at in the OP, but I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

At the risk of repeating myself too much, I'll say this again: What if you have someone's tone and play the same notes with roughly the same level of skill as the person you're emulating?

This is what I was getting at in the OP, but I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Then you will sound like them. Plain and simple. Maybe not EXACTLY but you will sound like them.

 

[Securb]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

At the risk of repeating myself too much, I'll say this again: What if you have someone's tone and play the same notes with roughly the same level of skill as the person you're emulating?

This is what I was getting at in the OP, but I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

If I dress up like Superman it doesn't mean I can fly. I remember reading a piece about John Scofield recording Piety Street. His AC30 and his Mesa Boogies did not make it to the studio and he was forced to use something else. I forgot what the amp was but it was super hot for his tastes. John Scofield made it work, if you listen to the album it is all Scofield, he sounds like himself. Alex Lifeson recorded Clockwork Angles through a Macbook. A lot of times in the studio an engineer will plug a guitarist into an amp or modeler much different than their live rig. What you see as a live rig vs. a recording rig is much different. Still these players retain their tone and sound.

 

[jon the art guy]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

If I dress up like Superman it doesn't mean I can fly.

Oh how we have forgotten..


Imagine if Ralph Hinkley had actually been clued in as to how to control that suit?
I'm sayin', sometimes the outfit makes the man is all. Also sometimes the amp makes the musician. We talk about the Brown Sound far more than we talk about touch playing.

 

[jtees4]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

I always wanted to sound like x, but I could never figure out who x was....and in high school I could never solve for x. How I ever graduated college i'll never know. But I know for sure that I am very well edumacated.

 

[DreX]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Four pages of clearing up misconceptions, and counting.

 

[Dr. Vegetable]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Four pages of clearing up misconceptions, and counting.

Yeah, you're not very good at this!

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

If I dress up like Superman it doesn't mean I can fly. I remember reading a piece about John Scofield recording Piety Street. His AC30 and his Mesa Boogies did not make it to the studio and he was forced to use something else. I forgot what the amp was but it was super hot for his tastes. John Scofield made it work, if you listen to the album it is all Scofield, he sounds like himself. Alex Lifeson recorded Clockwork Angles through a Macbook. A lot of times in the studio an engineer will plug a guitarist into an amp or modeler much different than their live rig. What you see as a live rig vs. a recording rig is much different. Still these players retain their tone and sound.

This is not a very good analogy. Superman is Superman regardless of his costume because his bioelectric aura protects his entire body even if he had no clothes. He could still do everything Superman would normally do but naked, the costume is almost just a formality. We need to look at this more like Iron Man, who without his gear, can't do too much to save the world just like a musician without a guitar/amp can't do much to play a gig. It does take technical knowhow to utilize the gear, but the op is concerned with someone who has "roughly the same level of skill as the person you're emulating?"

So what happens if someone who has a degree of skill hops into Iron Man's suit? Well he would be pretty much Iron Man, this is pretty much proven in Rhodey, or War Machine, who does not have the intellect of Tony Stark nor the same knowhow, but still pulls off the same job though somewhat differently. And while they are very competent as individuals, they aren't going to save the world from Galactus as normal guys just like a musician won't play a satisfying gig without any instruments.

And what you are talking about with Scofield, his hands aren't so much giving him the tone in that regard either. He had to fudge around the equipment he wouldn't normally use a lot and use modeling like you said. There was flexibility and likely sound engineers there to get him in the ballpark, so the gear is still totally relevant. And yes, with the same playing style he will always sound like himself, but the tone will be different, which it is but if its in the ballpark of the tone he needs, like if a painter has the general colors he needs then he will still make his art just like the painter will.

 

[Agileguy_101]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Be honest - could you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, tell that this was Eddie if you just walked into a room and this was playing? Because I don't think I could. If Eddie was using a 335 and a Super Lead (or whatever Clapton used on that recording, I don't follow what he used too closely) it would sound 99% like Clapton himself.

 

[Falloffthebonetone]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

Be honest - could you, beyond the shadow of a doubt, tell that this was Eddie if you just walked into a room and this was playing? Because I don't think I could. If Eddie was using a 335 and a Super Lead (or whatever Clapton used on that recording, I don't follow what he used too closely) it would sound 99% like Clapton himself.

Dude I didn't even know the Beat It solo was Eddie until someone told me. I like many people, assumed it was a hired gun emulating Van Halen. And I didn't even know the rest of that song was Steve Lukather, again until someone told me. Once you tell me I believe it, sure, but until then it would probably take me a couple of guesses to get it. No where near "beyond shadow of a doubt" levels of confidence.

Tons of people try to copy the greats too so that dilutes the chances even more. If someone told me that version of Crossroads was like Ted Nugent, Slash or Satriani or something I would believe it almost as much as if I was told it was Eddie. That is me being totally honest.

 

[AlexR]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

The problem with a lot of one-offs (like beat it) is that some players are VERY good at playing someone's particular style....you say - yeah that sounds like x player. But until you actually have the original in the room with the same gear its impossible to say whether its definitively close.

But if you know the person and the style well you can pick it.

I was listening to Satch just recently....a friend stuck it on in the car. Didn't take me long to figure out who it was, even though it was a song of his I'd not heard before.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: I Want to Clear Up a Misconception

...a lot of what we think of as tone is actually just personal style.

Of course it is. I'd say more than a lot, actually.