I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

[ImmortalSix]

Here is a thread dedicated to the proper setup of a Stratocaster floating vibrato (also called floating tremolo) system.

I am experienced with and good at fixed bridge setups, but the floating Stratocaster vibrato system eludes me.






Remember my sad story about "the Strat that once was" on Page 1 of the Strat vibrato poll thread?

Well, I took 2 hours last night and focused on setting my Stratocaster up to the best of my abilities.

Quick hit: it's still not great, the action is too high.



First things first, I dialed in the relief / bow of the neck. I have the neck perfectly straight right now - my straightedge touches the first fret, touches the 22nd fret, and every fret in between - the neck is dialed in perfectly straight. Will anyone chime in and either support that choice or explain why I would want the neck to be dialed in differently?

Second, I started what ended up being a very long process of setting up the vibrato for floating, and with Carl Verheyen's recommended "1-2-3" setup where you get a half step (1 fret) up on the e string, a whole step (2 frets) up on the B string, and one and a half steps (3 frets) up on the G string.

This is a 2 point 1996 AmStd vibrato system. I am running 3 springs (OE) and a Killer Guitar Components brass block. I won it from KGC in their SDUGF testing / testimonial campaign (thanks a lot KGC!).

What I am about to describe is something I repeated 7 times last night.






1) So, I backed out the claw screws, so that the bridge left the deck of the body and began to float.

2) Next, I adjusted the bass side claw screw and the treble side claw screw so that I got exactly 1 fret up on the e, 2 frets up on the B, 3 frets up on the G (from now on, I'm just going to call this "the 1-2-3").

To get these intervals on those 3 strings, The bass side of the bridge has to come up quite a bit. Further up than parallel to the body.

3) After you dial that in, you tune the guitar back up to EADGBe. When you loosened the vibrato springs, the bridge rose and loosened the tension on the strings, so the pitch of all of them is too low now. So you tune them all back up, and that introduces a lot more tension at the bridge.

Now the bridge is even higher up, because the tension pulling against the vibrato springs is greater.

4) So now you have to go back and screw the vibrato screws in (tighter) to get the 1-2-3 setup. This pulls the bridge back down, as the vibrato springs are now pulling more against the string tension. After you dial in the 1-2-3, you tune the guitar back to EADGBe.



As you recall in step 3, this introduces more tension and raises the bridge, so you go back to the claw screws...

In between steps 3 and 4, I was adjusting my saddles for action. I now realize this was folly, I should have waited until my springs vs. strings settled.

Anyways, when you drop the saddles, that reduces string tension. GOTO tuning the guitar to EADGBe, which raises the bridge, you go back to the claw screws, then the guitar needs tuning, then you go back to the saddles, then you tune again, then you go back to the claw screws, then you tune again, then you drop the saddles some more...

AD NAUSEUM.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

This morning, I picked the guitar up, and realized that the action was quite high. I think the springs vs. strings tension battle equalized overnight and the strings are winning.

Anyhow, I will need to drop the saddles some more, which is quite worrisome, because some of the saddles are damn near as low was they can go, and my set screws are now pretty much all sticking out of the top of the saddles, which I don't like, because my style involves a lot of palm muting and those little worm screw heads sticking up is no bueno for palm muting comfort.


Anyways, I just wanted to tell you guys that instead of throwing my hands up, I am rolling my sleeves up and I am going to work on this guitar's setup until I can recognize her again.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

:eek13::sleepy:.....
How can it be this difficult?
Way too much thinking and info.....
:eyecrazy:
Unless the guitar is difficult I get mine in order after one or tops two hours....
If it takes longer to make it useable, then it is a sick puppy that needs refretting, or has a warped neck, bad vib steel or something like that..

 

[CTN]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

I don't get it either....

Hunter, this weekend I'm going to make an damn strat setup thread, because I do not understand how so many people here have problems with setting up the trem for floating. I never have any problems with mine, and I have the action set low, neck is mostly straight, and spring/string tension is totally equalized. I never have tuning problems with my strat.

Hopefully it might help you out, unless you get your strat back in the zone before then.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

As far as why you would "need" the neck to be anything other than flat as a plane: If, in order to avoid buzzing, the string height ends up too high for your liking, you can go lower with the string height if your neck is set with a little bit of upward bow. I am not saying to twist it into a banana, but a little upward bow can help you keep the string height lower over most of the fretboard, with the same lack of buzz you get from a flat fretboard and higher strings. This is because when the neck is bowed a bit, and you fret a note, you end up with more clearance between the string and the next fret up. In other words, having some upbow effectively lowers each higher fret in relation to the fret below it. If you draw a picture, you can see why this is.

P.S. At a given pitch and with a proper intonation setting after each adjustment of the saddle up or down, lowering or raising the string height does not affect the tension on the string. It just affects the amount of force you must apply in order to fret the note. The string gauge/design (meaning how it's made and of what materials), the scale length, and the pitch to which it is tuned determine the tension.

The canted claw should in no way affect the amount of bend you get on individual strings relative to each other when using the vibrato. No matter how the claw is set, the bridge can only move on it's pivot points, so it is fixed on one axis. And no matter how the claw is set, the block, being solidly connected to the bridge, must move along with the bridge. Moving the claw this way or that cannot affect certain strings more than others. The bridge and block, being stuck together moving on a fixed axis, simply average out the tension of all the springs. All that matters is the total spring tension placed on the block, not which springs, or how many springs, are providing that tension.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

I don't get it either....

Hunter, this weekend I'm going to make an damn strat setup thread, because I do not understand how so many people here have problems with setting up the trem for floating. I never have any problems with mine, and I have the action set low, neck is mostly straight, and spring/string tension is totally equalized. I never have tuning problems with my strat.

Hopefully it might help you out, unless you get your strat back in the zone before then.

Thanks a lot - I will appreciate that very much!

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

I don't know either - why it is so difficult to get it not only stable, but set up with livable action.

Does anyone else have their Stratocaster set up with the aforementioned 1-2-3 setup, as prescribed by Carl Verheyen?

I feel like this setup may be rather extreme (too much headroom on the up-bending), and the root of my difficulties.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

...oh man ditch all the Carl this and Dan that and so on....
The thing has a mind of its own.....find that spot where it sounds good, forget the rest!

 

[Quencho092]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

maybe the buzzing and lack of playability is a neck pocket issue. Is your action too high from the 15th fret up? You might need to shim that a bit to raise it enough to just have the neck straight and the strings a bit more parallel to the board.

I was thinking my strat may need the same treatment because if I get my action perfect at the first 12 frets and the last 10 are high, there is no other way to balance this out and keep the neck straight. My saddles are also low to the limit and my bridge is decked, shimming would give you fewer turns on the hex screws in the bridge, less screw length sticking out..... maybe this is an american strat issue with the pocket being a bit too deep and needing shim for consistent action in the top register.

 

[dano8180]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

I've tried it twice to no avail. I can get my action/string height where I like it (1/4" at 12th fret) and stabilized tuning to A440, but as soon as I bend one friggin' note on any string, forget it, the whole thing is out of whack. I can only imagine what would happen if I even touched the bar at that point.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

And almost all strats have a raised fretboard after the 12th fret....
Most needs a planing up there, like the warmoth compound board...just the frets that gets the level going on instead!

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

As far as why you would "need" the neck to be anything other than flat as a plane: If, in order to avoid buzzing, the string height ends up too high for your liking, you can go lower with the string height if your neck is set with a little bit of upward bow. I am not saying to twist it into a banana, but a little upward bow can help you keep the string height lower over most of the fretboard, with the same lack of buzz you get from a flat fretboard and higher strings. This is because when the neck is bowed a bit, and you fret a note, you end up with more clearance between the string and the next fret up. In other words, having some upbow effectively lowers each higher fret in relation to the fret below it. If you draw a picture, you can see why this is.

P.S. At a given pitch and with a proper intonation setting after each adjustment of the saddle up or down, lowering or raising the string height does not affect the tension on the string. It just affects the amount of force you must apply in order to fret the note. The string gauge/design (meaning how it's made and of what materials), the scale length, and the pitch to which it is tuned determine the tension.

The canted claw should in no way affect the amount of bend you get on individual strings relative to each other when using the vibrato. No matter how the claw is set, the bridge can only move on it's pivot points, so it is fixed on one axis. And no matter how the claw is set, the block, being solidly connected to the bridge, must move along with the bridge. Moving the claw this way or that cannot affect certain strings more than others. The bridge and block, being stuck together moving on a fixed axis, simply average out the tension of all the springs. All that matters is the total spring tension placed on the block, not which springs, or how many springs, are providing that tension.

Great post, I understand what you are saying about neck bow, and also tension and the bridge moving, although the slant of the claw, or more appropriately, how far out each claw screw is, does affect how high the bridge is off the body, which is directly related to action.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

...oh man ditch all the Carl this and Dan that and so on....
The thing has a mind of its own.....find that spot where it sounds good, forget the rest!

I actually did find a sweet spot last night - I was feeling really good about it.

THen I pressed on with the iterative adjusting to get the up-bend intervals at 1-2-3, and it was out the window.

I think you're right - I need to find that sweet spot again.

THe only hassle is that it takes a lot of work to get there, and it's possible that I could get an hour in and still not find it, then just end up with the guitar's setup in disarray and poorly set up.

I guess I owe it to myself and this guitar to go out looking for that spot, though.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

maybe the buzzing and lack of playability is a neck pocket issue. Is your action too high from the 15th fret up? You might need to shim that a bit to raise it enough to just have the neck straight and the strings a bit more parallel to the board.

I was thinking my strat may need the same treatment because if I get my action perfect at the first 12 frets and the last 10 are high, there is no other way to balance this out and keep the neck straight. My saddles are also low to the limit and my bridge is decked, shimming would give you fewer turns on the hex screws in the bridge, less screw length sticking out..... maybe this is an american strat issue with the pocket being a bit too deep and needing shim for consistent action in the top register.

Very interesting point.

I think mine may need shimming, and I certainly have the scrap wood to make one.

The thing is, though, that this neck used to be set up perfectly with no shim, so I know that it can be again.

I had this neck off for about a year or two, when the guitar had a Road Worn neck on it. I decided to go back to all stock parts, neck included, to find that magical setup that it once had, since I know that those parts have been there before.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

Here is how I set up a Strat Vibrato:

A) I start with the vibrato set at 1/8 inch off of the deck and the guitar roughly set up, just for a standard point of reference. (With a two-point bridge like yours, I start with both posts screwed in such that the vibrato lies as close to flush with the body as possible when it is decked. You shouldn't need to raise the posts except to compensate for variations in neck angle between necks, or if you shim the same neck to change it's set angle.)

B) I then feel the action (basically the "resistance") of the vibrato.

I think, how hard do I want to have to press on the arm to make it change pitch? Then I figure out how many springs it takes to roughly get me that feel, and I put that many springs in there. Usually I just keep three.

C) Claw adjustments. They do two things: 1) Fine tune the vibrato action. 2) Set the height of the rear of the bridge off the deck.

The height off the deck affects two things: a) How much rearward travel the bridge has. In other words, how much you raise the pitch when decking the vibrato using the arm. b) The angle of the saddles relative to the fretboard. The latter will affect how much string height changes when making intonation adjustments. The closer to the deck the bridge plate is, the less string height will change (assuming no neck angle) when you adjust intonation. However, the closer to the deck you go, the less upward pitch bend you get when decking the bridge using the arm. So you have to find a happy medium between the two.

D) Check that the claw adjustments have not resulted in too much of a stiffer or softer vibrato action than what you wanted. It usually does not, but if the claw adjustments were dramatic, it may be necessary to admit that you guessed wrong on the number of springs, and start over with a different number.

E) Finely set up the guitar. Start with relief, then string height, then intonation.

F) Check that the setup has not adversely affected the desired action from the vibrato. It usually does not, but you may feel a slight difference if you have made major adjustments.

P.S. Changing the "float height" of the bridge off the deck does change string height, but IMO it is best to not use claw adjustments specifically to change string height. Think of it as, claw controls float height, and saddles control string height. After a claw adjustment, you can put the string height back where it was before the adjustment, by using the saddles. However, if you use the claw as a way to set string height, you are stuck with whatever vibrato action and amount of upward bend you end up with on the vibrato.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

Here is how I set up a Strat Vibrato:

A) I start with the vibrato set at 1/8 inch off of the deck and the guitar roughly set up, just for a standard point of reference. (With a two-point bridge like yours, I start with both posts screwed in such that the vibrato lies as close to flush with the body as possible when it is decked. You shouldn't need to raise the posts except to compensate for variations in neck angle between necks, or if you shim the same neck to change it's set angle.)

B) I then feel the action (basically the "resistance") of the vibrato.

I think, how hard do I want to have to press on the arm to make it change pitch? Then I figure out how many springs it takes to roughly get me that feel, and I put that many springs in there. Usually I just keep three.

C) Claw adjustments. They do two things: 1) Fine tune the vibrato action. 2) Set the height of the rear of the bridge off the deck.

The height off the deck affects two things: a) How much rearward travel the bridge has. In other words, how much you raise the pitch when decking the vibrato using the arm. b) The angle of the saddles relative to the fretboard. The latter will affect how much string height changes when making intonation adjustments. The closer to the deck the bridge plate is, the less string height will change (assuming no neck angle) when you adjust intonation. However, the closer to the deck you go, the less upward pitch bend you get when decking the bridge using the arm. So you have to find a happy medium between the two.

D) Check that the claw adjustments have not resulted in too much of a stiffer or softer vibrato action than what you wanted. It usually does not, but if the claw adjustments were dramatic, it may be necessary to admit that you guessed wrong on the number of springs, and start over with a different number.

5) Finely set up the guitar. Start with relief, then string height, then intonation.

6) Check that the setup has not adversely affected the desired action from the vibrato. It usually does not, but you may feel a slight difference if you have made major adjustments.

Great post - thank you again.

I may proceed with this method tonight.

What do you mean by relief?

Many folks use it to describe different things, I just want to make sure I am on the same page here.

 

[King IzzO)))]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

TLNR, sounds like you need a shim.

 

[Chris of Arabia]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

Great post - thank you again.

I may proceed with this method tonight.

What do you mean by relief?

Many folks use it to describe different things, I just want to make sure I am on the same page here.

Relief is the amount of curvature the truss rod allows the neck to have when tuned to pitch. It is normal to have some small amount of forward bow in the direction of string pull, though some prefer the neck absolutely flat. Back bow can cause problems with set up

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

Relief is the amount of curvature the truss rod allows the neck to have when tuned to pitch. It is normal to have some small amount of forward bow in the direction of string pull, though some prefer the neck absolutely flat. Back bow can cause problems with set up

OK, we are all on the same page then - great!

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: I6 Sets up a Stratocaster Floating Vibrato

I always thought that there should be "some"
forward bow in a well adjusted neck
using the strings as a straight edge
fret the first and last fret
there should be about 1/16 of an inch of gap
round the 8th or ninth fret

at least that is my understanding of "relief"