Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

[Kiwi]

Hi there! A couple of days ago, I sent a mail to Seymour Duncans customer support, where I asked a couple of questions which I will include later on in this post. Basically, I would be really grateful if you could voice your opinions and give me some hints.

I have a Gibson SG, which is fitted with a Gibson 490R neck pickup and a
Gibson Angus Young signature bridge humbucker. While the neck is fine,
even great, I find the bridge pickup to be a bit too icepick-ish for my
taste, if you know what I mean. It simply has too much treble, which is
a bit ear piercing and bright, and after countless of modifications
(caps, pots, pole-piece adjustments, PU-height etc.), I still haven't
got the sound I'm after quite down. As the Angus humbucker is an Alnico
V, I figured I'd need a Alnico II-type pickup to mellow out the tone,
and I've particularly looked at the Pearly Gates bridge pickup.



To describe the tone I'm after, I'd say that these songs are the best
bet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bElYRFkFO4) and
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuxS-9t3tnY&feature=related). A sort of
mellow and warm singing lead tone as opposed to the anemic trebliness
that I have at the moment. As far as the amp goes, it's a 5W class A
tube Epiphone Valve Junior, but I've experienced the same "problem" in
several different amps. I guess you could say I'm after a kind of Angus
Young meets Brian May-kind of tone, mellow and sweet but with punch
(altough as it is right now, I'd happily leave out some punch to get a
more usable tone).

I would love to hear any suggestions you might have on this rather
annoying issue.

The answer:

Hi!
I suggest our Pearly Gates bridge model in this case.

My answer:

After reading around, mainly at your forums, I've gotten to know that Pearly Gates are slightly treble-biased as well... Would an Alnico II be a better bet for the clips I uploaded, or should I go with the Pearly Gates?

Thanks.

And the last mail (from the customer support):

When Angus Young's tech shipped us his guitars, we essentially dropped some Pearly Gates in them and they sound amazing.
I don't really consider it a "bright" pickup. It's just a bit grittier than the Alnico II Pros. Those are a little more smooth and mild sounding. But I can't see you going too wrong with either model.

Best Regards,

So what do you guys reckon in this situation? Please do watch the Youtube links, they're great pointers to what I'm after. I'd like to get some opinions before I shell out quite an ammount of cash on a humbucker which might turn out to be something that's all wrong for me, especially since I'm a student and all. Thanks in advance :thanks:
(and sorry for the wall of text)

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I agree with the choice of a PG.

Frank has supposedly said that the PG is the stock Duncan pickup most similar to the Duncan Custom Shop '78 and Jeremy has said that that it's similar to the Tom Holmes humbuckers. Since I own and use all three (PG, '78 and Holmes) I'd have to say that the PG is not quite the equal of the '78 or Holmes but it's not $150 - 400. either! Regardless, the PG's are some of my very favorite stock Duncan pickups.

But ultimately everything depends upon you being accomplished enough to be able to produce a nice tone with your hands and on the quality of the amp and speakers you're playing through. If you're a beginner playing through a cheap amp your tone is not going to be the tone of your favorite guitar hero blowing through a $2000 - 5000 amp regardless of what pickup you choose. And if you're a beginner who's been playing only a couple of years you're going to get a lot better in the coming years and your tone is going to change - for the better.

Regarding the PGb, I do not hear it as being a bright pickup. It's an alnico 2 pickup and a clone of a 50's Gibson alnico 2 paf pickup. Through a quality amp it should sound really, really good.

Lew

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I agree with the choice of a PG. But ultimately everything depends upon you being accomplished enough to be able to produce a nice tone with your hands and on the quality of the amp and speakers you're playing through. If you're a beginner playing through a cheap amp your tone is not going to be the tone of your favorite guitar hero blowing through a $2000 - 5000 amp regardless of what pickup you choose. And if you're a beginner who's been playing only a couple of years you're going to get a lot better in the coming years and your tone is going to change - for the better.

Regarding the PGb, I do not hear it as being a bright pickup. It's an alnico 2 pickup and a clone of a 50's Gibson alnico 2 paf pickup. Through a quality amp it should sound really, really good.

Lew

Indeed, I do know that my tone will eventually become better, but since I've been playing for a couple of years now I feel that I've gotten better at narrowing down what kind of tone I'm really after. It's not that I'm trying to copy either of the tones that I linked to, it's more like trying to accomplish something in the vicinity of those, if you know what I mean. Since I feel that my pickup is rather bright, and always has been (regardless of amp, it seems), I think that I need to rethink my setup in a way that gives me "sweeter" tone.

I mean, this pickup sounds good and all, even better with the distortion on, but my band is aiming for that overdriven clean channel sound of AC/DC, Queen etc., which I something I don't consider this pickup fully accomplishes. Also, I have a feeling that my guitar somehow is rather bright for a mahogany-based guitar in general. The neck pickup does sound a little bright, but it is not really annoying. I would almost go as far as saying that it is slightly brighter than it ought to be, though.

This is also why I'm wary of getting a PG, because with my guitar's slightly bright character (I suppose...?) it would perhaps not accomplish anything and leave me with just a slightly less bright guitar.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

Kiwi,

Welcome to the forum.

Have you thought about swapping the magnet in your Angus Young PU with an Alnico 2 mag? Your PU has an alnico 5 mag stock which can tend to be bright with some mid scooping in a lot of pickups. Whereas the alnico 2 mellows out the high end and gives some more low end smoothness. It is an easy fix that takes about 10 minutes and only costs $5, but can make a tremendous change in the tone of any given PU.

Search the forum for detailed instructions and diagrams for doing this swap.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I get along with the PG fine, but I can certainly see it as bright for some players. If you use the tone controls on your guitar properly it should be okay. The APH pickup is a good alternative because it's not as bright as the PG to most people, although the PG seems to have more output. Another option is the Custom Custom if you want more output with warmer highs.

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

Kiwi,

Welcome to the forum.

Have you thought about swapping the magnet in your Angus Young PU with an Alnico 2 mag? Your PU has an alnico 5 mag stock which can tend to be bright with some mid scooping in a lot of pickups. Whereas the alnico 2 mellows out the high end and gives some more low end smoothness. It is an easy fix that takes about 10 minutes and only costs $5, but can make a tremendous change in the tone of any given PU.

Search the forum for detailed instructions and diagrams for doing this swap.

I've always been interested in trying that... I'll have a look and see if I can find something. Would you consider it hard to do for someone who has basically just replaced pickups and caps when it comes to electronics and dismantling guitars?

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

Sorry for double posting, but after reading around I've come to the conclution that this seems to be a rather advanced process, especially if you absolutely have to wax pot the pickups afterwards. When I added a nickel cover to my 490R, I didn't pot it and I can honestly say that I've never heard any difference in tone whatsoever... Is it really extremely vital to wax pot pickups after magnet swaps?

Also, I feel a bit unsure about using a Dremel tool to cut through the wax seal on the pickup, it all feels a bit risky... But if there are other ways to do it, please do tell.

 

[ACH91332]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I've used both the PG and the A2P in the bridge and neck positions. I like a warm bridge and a bright neck so I liked the A2P in the bridge and a PG in the neck.

Out of the two I'd recommend the A2P in the bridge. It isn't really warm but its not harsh bright. I'd say its in the middle. It is very balanced and is a good pickup. Nice round bottom and mids with a sweet top end. The PG is a good bridge pickup too but with my setup it had too much high end. I play through a Marshall JVM. So based on my experiences I'd recommend the A2P.

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I've used both the PG and the A2P in the bridge and neck positions. I like a warm bridge and a bright neck so I liked the A2P in the bridge and a PG in the neck.

Out of the two I'd recommend the A2P in the bridge. It isn't really warm but its not harsh bright. I'd say its in the middle. It is very balanced and is a good pickup. Nice round bottom and mids with a sweet top end. The PG is a good bridge pickup too but with my setup it had too much high end. I play through a Marshall JVM. So based on my experiences I'd recommend the A2P.

Yeah, that's the exact same reasoning I use... Still pretty interested in those magnet swaps though, I have a feeling that the Angus Young PU has a lot to give with an A2, just need to know if there's any wax potting involved, 'cause that kind of puts me off.

If it turns out to be a bit too risky, I'll probably go for either a PG or AP2... argh, decisions decisions... :eyecrazy:

EDIT:
Oh and, does anyone have tips on where I can order magnets? I want the store to be able to ship to Sweden.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I've never used a PG, so I can't comment on that, but I just swapped an a2p into a Les Paul bridge and the result was equal to "sex" to quote another forum member. I love the classic rock tone of AC/DC, Led Zeppelin etc, and that's what I got. It also sounds fantastic with high gain patches on my Vox Tonelab as well. Might I suggest purchasing both pickups, using one for a few weeks, then using the other, and just selling off the one you like least? If you have the finances to do that, you will lose some money on the pickup you sell, but in time you won't miss that cash and you'll appreciate the tone you have for spending that extra I think.

Remember, what sounds good through one person's setup may not sound good through yours, so my a2p in my 73 LP, Vox Tonelab using my own programming through a 71 Univox amp, Earcandy Buzzbomb cab with my speakers might sound like the best thing ever. However, that same exact pickup taken out of my guitar, swapped into yours and then put through your effects, amp, and speakers may sound terrible where the PG sounds heavenly and vice versa. Experimentation if you can afford it is a good thing to do.

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

I've never used a PG, so I can't comment on that, but I just swapped an a2p into a Les Paul bridge and the result was equal to "sex" to quote another forum member. I love the classic rock tone of AC/DC, Led Zeppelin etc, and that's what I got. It also sounds fantastic with high gain patches on my Vox Tonelab as well. Might I suggest purchasing both pickups, using one for a few weeks, then using the other, and just selling off the one you like least? If you have the finances to do that, you will lose some money on the pickup you sell, but in time you won't miss that cash and you'll appreciate the tone you have for spending that extra I think.

Remember, what sounds good through one person's setup may not sound good through yours, so my a2p in my 73 LP, Vox Tonelab using my own programming through a 71 Univox amp, Earcandy Buzzbomb cab with my speakers might sound like the best thing ever. However, that same exact pickup taken out of my guitar, swapped into yours and then put through your effects, amp, and speakers may sound terrible where the PG sounds heavenly and vice versa. Experimentation if you can afford it is a good thing to do.

True... but I think I'm a bit inclined to the warm and mellow kind of sound an Alnico Pro II gives. Sure, buying both would be the best way, but I don't really have that kind of budget...

Still interested about that magnet swapping though. Might as well go for it if it doesn't require wax potting, which my other pickup hasn't needed yet...

 

[Aceman]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

You know, I suppose I'm with Lew on this issue; There are not really any humbuckers I hear as overly bright. There are A LOT that are very dark, however. I think a lot of people's ears get tuned to this.

I think SD's description is a pretty good one. Do a 50's mod on the controls to keep treble while lowering volume, and then use the tone knob - which should be a 300k, further taming the shrill. Does Billy Gibbons sound too bright? Sure, that's an LP, and an SG is an inherently brighter axe. Still.

If you are really offended by bright - I agree, A2P. However - the Brian May / Angus thing is completely at odds with each other. That's either two different sounds (amps, etc...) or the MIDDLE pup setting - which a 490 + PG might actually do pretty good!

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

You know, I suppose I'm with Lew on this issue; There are not really any humbuckers I hear as overly bright. There are A LOT that are very dark, however. I think a lot of people's ears get tuned to this.

I think SD's description is a pretty good one. Do a 50's mod on the controls to keep treble while lowering volume, and then use the tone knob - which should be a 300k, further taming the shrill. Does Billy Gibbons sound too bright? Sure, that's an LP, and an SG is an inherently brighter axe. Still.

If you are really offended by bright - I agree, A2P. However - the Brian May / Angus thing is completely at odds with each other. That's either two different sounds (amps, etc...) or the MIDDLE pup setting - which a 490 + PG might actually do pretty good!

Sure, most of what you're saying makes complete sense IMO. But speaking of the Brian/Angus-dilemma, that really early Angus tone (think '74 Jailbreak) does have some, albeit small, tonal quality that kind of resembles that of May's, atleast to my ears.

I do know that I easily get "offended" by trebliness, and that's kind of the point in me trying to eliminate some of it to get a more mid-ish overall sound curve.

Speaking of the 50's mod, is the difference in treble gain/loss that much bigger after performing said mod? I've always felt that my tone control does just about what it should, bar the characteristic "pitfall" in treble around ~5-0 on the knob, but for just shaving of the extreme shrillness (appx. 8 on the knob), it kind of does the job.

Now I know I might sound like a jammed record player by this time, but that magnet swapping business seems like a good bet. I have a feeling, which might not be completely valid, of my AY-pickup having lots to give once you shave of that midlevel scooping and treble. So if any of you have experience in it, please do tell about where you can get magnets online and wheter wax potting is extremely necessary.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

If you do a forum search, there were a few threads giving implicit instructions on how to magnet swap. Explained in detail and easy to follow.

 

[Kiwi]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

Alright... seems pretty straightforward, and lots of guys use hairdryers to re-pot the wax. Well then, just got to find me a webshop with magnets tomorrown and I'll see what I can do.

Cheers.

 

[RLee]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

As far as magnet swaps, I had a somewhat opposite problem with my SG, and a magnet swap worked great for me. I had the stock 490R and 490T pickups (which are A2 mags), and the tone was muddy, so I put A4 mags in both pickups, and they brightened up to just the tone I was looking for. The process was very easy, just used a hairdryer to soften the wax to get the old mags out (my pu's were uncovered). The site I ordered the mags from was http://www.wymoreguitars.com/

On the other hand, the advantage of NOT doing a mag swap is that you'll preserve your current AY pickup for later use...

 

[Aceman]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

If you do a forum search, there were a few threads giving implicit instructions on how to magnet swap. Explained in detail and easy to follow.

Those would be the ones where Blueman basically calls you an idiot for not doing it.

The explicit posts will be the ones that give you very clear instructions on how to do it. Blueman has a couple of those too.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

Alright, first...there is this thing that goes all over the internet about the DUncan PG pickups that they are bright, raw, sizzley, etc...THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!

The Duncan PG is NOT brighter than ANY typical PAF humbucking pickup.

Sorry...it's just NOT.

The PG might be the best pickup for what you are looking for, in fact as SD Customer support mentioned...Angus is using them not too!

PG's have that classic squish to them that all Alnico II pickups have BUT they have a bigger stronger bottom end than almost any other alnico II pickup I've ever tried which makes them nice for guitars that on their own don't have a ot of lows (Like an SG).

I say give the PG a shot...however don't replace just one...go for the set, the PG neck is amazing as well!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

Alright, first...there is this thing that goes all over the internet about the DUncan PG pickups that they are bright, raw, sizzley, etc...THIS IS NOT TRUE!!!

The Duncan PG is NOT brighter than ANY typical PAF humbucking pickup.

Sorry...it's just NOT.

The PG might be the best pickup for what you are looking for, in fact as SD Customer support mentioned...Angus is using them not too!

PG's have that classic squish to them that all Alnico II pickups have BUT they have a bigger stronger bottom end than almost any other alnico II pickup I've ever tried which makes them nice for guitars that on their own don't have a ot of lows (Like an SG).

I say give the PG a shot...however don't replace just one...go for the set, the PG neck is amazing as well!

That's right. I've never heard a paf style humbucker that was ice pick bright. I've heard any number of Strat and Tele single coils that are glassy sounding and ice pick bright but no paf style humbuckers that are ice pick bright. If we're going to use a term like ice pick bright it could apply to certain single coils but it doesn't fit when applied to humbuckers.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Icepick brightness - PG or Alnico Pro II?

The PG does have an upper mid spike that let's it project/cut. Almost like a presence knob turned up built into the pup. But I would not say it is harsh in any way.

The A2 adds a sweet round top that makes the highs just awesome and round and smooth.

As for the fizz, I think there is a bit of hair? fizz? grit? I don't know what to call it. Hair I guess. But it isn't like it's distorted or anything. It's a raw sound I suppose, and it is really down in the tone. You would have to play it clean and VERY loud to notice when clean. But it is NOTHING like the fizz from a Dirty Fingers or an X2N or whatever. I like it. It's a different sound compaired to a clean 59 - but still clean.

PG = 59 without the harsh slicey top
PG = A2P with more presence
PG = AWESOME!