in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

astrozombie

KatyPerryologist
It's just never made sense to me.

the G bar chord shape but without the 5th string and the low E string open substitutes for E minor in the Gmaj-Emin-Cmaj-Dmaj progression.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

G major chord = G B D notes
E minor chord = E G B

Combining the major and relative minor chords gives E G B D. i.e. Em7 (or G6)
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

Every major key has a relative minor, which shares the same notes.
It's part of Western tempered music.

So, E Natural Minor has the same notes as G Major.

Most guitar players skip the 'natural' part, but there are a few different types of minor scales.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

The "sub Em" thing is just the music writer giving you a quick cheater way to play the chord while sight reading. It's saying that if you just wanna play a normal open Em chord, it'll pretty much work, since none of the notes contained in that chord are really "off" from a Gmaj with an E bass; they're just put in a different order. But musically speaking, in the context of the song, the chord is actually a Gmaj with an E bass note over it, regardless of the fact that that fingering is what is normally called an Em.

Open Em (top to bottom): E, B, G, E, B, E
The G(Em) chord you described (top to bottom): G, D, B, G, E

They are not the same chords in and of themselves, but they contain the same notes, so in the context of the song, one can serve to substitute for the other.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

One other thing to factor in is the melody for the specific song. If the melody employs the E note (the sixth) over the G major chord, the rules of harmony will be obeyed whichever of the two chords you play.


EDIT
Glenn. If you want to experiment with this stuff, make a short recording of rhythm guitar playing just one chord. Rewind then play various bass root notes under the chord. Your choice of bass note will affect the overall harmony - even though the guitar chord remains the same.
 
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Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

I have a granddaughter and nieces and nephews who are relative minors.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

The "sub Em" thing is just the music writer giving you a quick cheater way to play the chord while sight reading. It's saying that if you just wanna play a normal open Em chord, it'll pretty much work, since none of the notes contained in that chord are really "off" from a Gmaj with an E bass; they're just put in a different order. But musically speaking, in the context of the song, the chord is actually a Gmaj with an E bass note over it, regardless of the fact that that fingering is what is normally called an Em.

Open Em (top to bottom): E, B, G, E, B, E
The G(Em) chord you described (top to bottom): G, D, B, G, E

They are not the same chords in and of themselves, but they contain the same notes, so in the context of the song, one can serve to substitute for the other.

Chordal harmonization is a little different than scalar.

The I6 and vii7 have the same notes.

In this case, GMaj6, G B D E and Em7, E G B D
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

Chordal harmonization is a little different than scalar.

The I6 and vii7 have the same notes.

In this case, GMaj6, G B D E and Em7, E G B D

Obviously both chords don't have exactly the same notes. But what we would normally call Em fingering can serve as a Gmaj with an E bass in this case (though it leaves out the D). It doesn't have to be played as a 7th chord to serve as a substitute here. It's the crappy shortcut version of the intended chord that most players will be able to quickly sight read, and as such, it will not sound as intended (since it doesn't have the D note in it). It's an "it'll do in a pinch" chord, nothing more.
 
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Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

No offense to anyone but I just can't imagine playing an Em and having it take the place of a Gmaj
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

No offense to anyone but I just can't imagine playing an Em and having it take the place of a Gmaj
I agree. That is why theory is fun. :)
Expanding beyond diads/"power chords", and even 3 note chords, is when substitutions really start to shine. Just playing an Em triad instead of a Gm triad is barely enough to get a tenuous hold on the actual theoretical possibilities.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

No offense to anyone but I just can't imagine playing an Em and having it take the place of a Gmaj

Context is everything.

In a large ensemble, the guitar can get away with chord substitutions because another instrument will be playing the "missing" notes anyhow.

This theory stuff would probably make more sense if you wrote/arranged on keyboards.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

No offense to anyone but I just can't imagine playing an Em and having it take the place of a Gmaj

It doesn't.

First, it's not actually an Em in that use; it just looks like one. In that use, it's just another inversion of the intended chord, with some slop allowed in letting that high E in. It's called Em as a fingering shortcut only, not in the theoretical sense.

Secondly, it doesn't take the place of a G, as you stated. It takes the place of a G with an E bass note. As for why it can theoretically work in a pinch to replace G w/ E bass, the fingering that we normally refer to as open Em has the E bass in it, and none of the other notes in it clash with the G w/ E bass chord. You end up with a high 6th, but it likely won't clash, and it can also easily be left out of the chord if it does.

Thirdly, it's an imperfect option anyhow, placed there as a cheater shortcut, so it makes no sense to spend any time thinking so hard about it. If you have the time to go on the Internet and ask about it at all, then you have the time to just learn how to play the right chord in the first place. It's what you're supposed to do anyhow if you have the time to figure it out. The Em notation is just a quick sight reading shortcut.

Finally, the originally intended chord is arguably even easier to play than the open Em formation. That's because depending on where you are on the neck when that chord comes up, going to first position to play that open chord might require a larger shift than playing that bar-g-based chord.

In short, don't worry about it so much, and just play the right chord, since you aren't sight reading, and have the luxury of study time.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

When my ears tell me it sounds good...it's good :D

Sometimes the more theoretically "wrong"/innapropriate/inadequate/outlandish something is the better/more unique & interesting it sounds ...besides using unorthodox chord sustitutions that sound "right" (preserve the melody) also usually makes you sound different from the next guy, which to me is the holy grail of guitar playing.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

It doesn't.

First, it's not actually an Em in that use; it just looks like one. In that use, it's just another inversion of the intended chord, with some slop allowed in letting that high E in. It's called Em as a fingering shortcut only, not in the theoretical sense.

Secondly, it doesn't take the place of a G, as you stated. It takes the place of a G with an E bass note. As for why it can theoretically work in a pinch to replace G w/ E bass, the fingering that we normally refer to as open Em has the E bass in it, and none of the other notes in it clash with the G w/ E bass chord. You end up with a high 6th, but it likely won't clash, and it can also easily be left out of the chord if it does.

Thirdly, it's an imperfect option anyhow, placed there as a cheater shortcut, so it makes no sense to spend any time thinking so hard about it. If you have the time to go on the Internet and ask about it at all, then you have the time to just learn how to play the right chord in the first place. It's what you're supposed to do anyhow if you have the time to figure it out. The Em notation is just a quick sight reading shortcut.

Finally, the originally intended chord is arguably even easier to play than the open Em formation. That's because depending on where you are on the neck when that chord comes up, going to first position to play that open chord might require a larger shift than playing that bar-g-based chord.

In short, don't worry about it so much, and just play the right chord, since you aren't sight reading, and have the luxury of study time.

I don't want you to get the wrong idea, I absorbed your post completely. I just want to make sure:

I'm talking about this chord:

E%2fGmaj.png



Ignore the fingering at the bottom.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

That's the chord you described all right.

It's super easy to play. Just take a normal bar G, then shift the bar up one string, using the tip of your index finger to dead the 5th string.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

I always thought it would have been written Gmaj/E

??????
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

Ignore the fingering at the bottom.

The sounding of the open bottom E string cannot be ignored. In fact, it is precisely the reason why the chord is named Gmaj/E.
 
Re: in G Maj, why does G with the bass in E substitute Em?

G major triad with an E added in the bass creates an Em7 voicing. That's the shortest way to notate a chord consisting of the notes E,G,B,D.
 
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