Intonation and need Rogain! HELP!

[DotNetTim]

Hello, Hey guys.. I bought this guitar which is a custom guitar not long back and have been pulling my hair out.. The reason being is the Intonation.. This guitar is a custom Washburn from the Chicago Custom Shop, which comes standard with the Buzz Feiten tuning system.. in a nut shell the tuning is supposed to be the same up and down the fretboard unlike most guitars which is a comprimise.. Anyway, I lowered the action, and changed size of the strings, etc.. to my preferences on the guitar as soon as I got it.. Something I've done a million times.. I added some relief to the middle of the neck via the bar in the neck.. Can't think of the name of it at this piont since I'm so mad../ frustrated.. Well, this is something I've done since I was 20 years old to any guitar I"ve bought used or new to set up to my preference.. I'm now 42 and this is the guitar that has caused me more heart ache than any.. I can't seem to get it intonated.. Usually I can do so with my ear almost by fretting the 12th fret, and then chiming the 12th fret and making sure they are the same after getting the guitar in tune, etc.. Usually it works about every time.. I've made sure the strings are good in the nut and not getting stuck as it has a cool graphite nut cut for this size of strings I'm using.. The bridge is ok.. The cutouts in the bridge work fine, etc.. I've raised and lowered the action, and I can only seem to get close.. but my big E doesn't ever want to get intonated for some reason.. Does anyone have a sure fire way of telling me how they intonate? Is there an order to doing this? I mean should one adjust the truss rod first, or raise or lower the action first, etc.. before intonation? I ask because I"ve always done it by trial and error.. and finally usually can get it close enough that a tuner is right on.. and that's using my ear.. I'm using a cheapy tuner right now, and I realize it would be cool to have a strobe tuner, but alas I don't have one.. I just want it to get close ? Thanks and any help would be greatly appreciated..
The guitar by the way has a fixed bridge .. Shaller I think since it says it's made in Germany.. The tuners are Grovers also made in Germany.. It has a Gibson scale, Graphite Nut.. Email me if you want at: timAThtonline.net removing the AT (Spam protection) and substituting the AT for an @ symbol!
Thanks
Tim

 

[Artie]

Hey Tim; I think the normal sequence is to adjust the truss rod, set the action, then do the tuning. But I'm not sure, (physically) what the BF tuning system is. I've read about it on the web, but they never say exactly what it is.

My guess is, your trying to use a "normal" intonation technique, on a, "Buzz" modified guitar.

Just a thought.

 

[stratsandaks]

I have no personal experience with the Buzz Feiten tuning system, but I understand that you have to approach tuning it a little differently.

http://www.timsguitar.com/new.htm

I had a better link but I can't seem to find it right now.

 

[Gearjoneser]

I had a good piece on intonation in the old Vault, but I never saved it. If anyone did, send it to me in PM's, so it can go in the new Vault.

Here's how to cure the problem. It sounds like you already adjusted the action and truss rod to your liking, and intonated
the 12th fret to match the open notes.

Now, using a tuner with a needle like a Boss TU-12, or even better a Peterson strobe tuner, make sure that ALL the frets
from the 10th to the 17th read dead center on the tuner.
This is "fine tuning" your intonation. The 12Th is not enough.

It gets a little off as you approach the 19th to 22nd fret, but try to get every note on the fretboard to read dead center.
Also, make sure that the nut is cut to accomodate the new string gauge, because going just one step up can make the strings ride higher. This is the reason open chords can sometimes sound a little out, because the notes are bending sharp as you fret them.
Have a tech run a file through the slots if that is an issue.

If your action, truss rod, and intonation is 100% perfect, which it WILL be, especially with the Feiten tuning system, your guitar should sound perfect on all chords across the neck, and stay in tune. If your guitar doesn't stay in tune, no matter what,
your intonation is off.

 

[Bludave]

SEND IT BACK!!!!! Its a Custom guitar.. Let them fix it or replace it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[StrangeDay]

If the action is already very low, and the 12th fret is sharp (when open string is in tune), should the saddles be pulled BACK? Or forward? (inside)

 

[Gearjoneser]

If the action is already very low, and the 12th fret is sharp (when open string is in tune), should the saddles be pulled BACK? Or forward? (inside)

If the 12th fretted note sounds sharp, move the saddle AWAY
from the neck, a little at a time, till you can fret every note from the 10th to the 17th, and have it be dead center on the tuner.

Keep in mind, it's best to retune the entire guitar everytime you adjust something. Other strings being sharp or flat can hinder your ability to get perfect intonation on the string you're working on. Sometimes, it takes time, but the end result is a guitar that sings perfectly.

 

[StrangeDay]

GearJoneser,
I've been doing that with the saddlesx for the past couple nights. I keep pulling them further and further back, and my low E is almost hitting the back of the plate. It is still not perfectly intonated. Does this mean I have to adjust the neck?

 

[DotNetTim]

Re: Intonation and need Rogain! HELP!

Thank you guys so much.. I really appreciate it.. I have the link and I'm getting it now, but it's a pain ! I guess no one ever said intonation is easy.. It does stay in tune up and down the neck now though and sounds so sweet compared to other guitars..

What's going to happen if I need a new nut and I don't have a tech that knows how to install the Buzz Nut? That's what I don't like? I mean, I might have to send it off I guess won't I? I say this because I understand that the nut is moved or installed moved to compensate for the off tuning of most ordinary guitars.. ?

Tim

 

[DotNetTim]

Re: Intonation and need Rogain! HELP!

I had a good piece on intonation in the old Vault, but I never saved it. If anyone did, send it to me in PM's, so it can go in the new Vault.

Here's how to cure the problem. It sounds like you already adjusted the action and truss rod to your liking, and intonated
the 12th fret to match the open notes.

Now, using a tuner with a needle like a Boss TU-12, or even better a Peterson strobe tuner, make sure that ALL the frets
from the 10th to the 17th read dead center on the tuner.
This is "fine tuning" your intonation. The 12Th is not enough.

It gets a little off as you approach the 19th to 22nd fret, but try to get every note on the fretboard to read dead center.
Also, make sure that the nut is cut to accomodate the new string gauge, because going just one step up can make the strings ride higher. This is the reason open chords can sometimes sound a little out, because the notes are bending sharp as you fret them.
Have a tech run a file through the slots if that is an issue.

If your action, truss rod, and intonation is 100% perfect, which it WILL be, especially with the Feiten tuning system, your guitar should sound perfect on all chords across the neck, and stay in tune. If your guitar doesn't stay in tune, no matter what,
your intonation is off.

Thanks so much man.. I really appreciate it..

 

[DotNetTim]

Re: Intonation and need Rogain! HELP!

I have no personal experience with the Buzz Feiten tuning system, but I understand that you have to approach tuning it a little differently.

http://www.timsguitar.com/new.htm

I had a better link but I can't seem to find it right now.

Dude,

Thanks a bunch.. If you find a better link, please let me know..

Tim

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Intonation and need Rogain! HELP!

About the nut, there are good techs in most cities who know about the tuning system,
and probably have access to Feiten nuts. As long as yours is cut perfectly, you'll never have to touch it again. It sounds like your guitar has improved since you started fine tuning the intonation. If you have a new set of strings, tuned up perfect, and your tuner reads dead center on almost all the notes on the neck,
you've finished intonating it. I sometimes double and triple check all the notes on the fretboard, especially the G & B, because those are the two problem strings, usually.
You can get a regular guitar in tune about 98%. The Feiten tuning system positioned frets at slightly different angles, and tweaked the nut. That guitar should be 100%