Intonation quandry

[Coma]

I've heard from techies that a rule of thumb for intonation on a TOM bridge is a 1-2-3 + 1-2-3 pattern. Something like this:

And the standard PRS compensating stopbar (though I can't for the life of me figure out how this doesnt' cause intonation problems) seems to follow the same rule:

Anyway, I've set my TOM up a number of times, as I've changed gauges several times over the past 10 years or so, and I've never had it land in that pattern. Am I doing something wrong here, or is there just some fundamental aspect of intonation I've somehow managed to completely miss out on?

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Intonation quandry

The exact pattern depends on whether the saddle blocks are all facing the same way, on what string gauges you employ, on the neck pitch angle and on your truss rod adjustment.

Pics of your bridge would help.

 

[constant mesh]

Re: Intonation quandry

Correctly intonated bridge should always have this pattern in theory if using standard-interval tuning. 1st string is the lenght of the scale, 2nd goes back half of the thickness of the strings, 3rd goes back from the 2nd the same way 2nd goes from 1st, 4th is parallel to the 1st and the pattern repeats. That's a very lose determination.

Be careful, TOM bridges might have 3 saddle facing the oposite direction, so you should always look at the tops of the slots, not the saddles themselves.

Your intonation problems might arise from setting it improperly. Always set the saddles a bit flat or just back them flush as far as they go. Then put a new set of strings on it and deal with the flats, rather than sharps. If your strings is sharp and you start moving that saddle back, the kink in the string caused by the saddle at the break angle will ruin any measurements afterwards because it will move toward the nut, not to the tailpiece.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Intonation quandry

What method are you using to tune the saddles?

P.S. The pattern is not correct if you use a wound G. It's terrible, actually. This is also why people complain about intonation on Teles; they are using a plain G on a bridge that was designed for a wound G.

 

[Coma]

Re: Intonation quandry

Well, they're all facing forward, same as on that picture. And I don't have any intonation problems, so that's sort of why I'm curious. My unorthodox saddle placement seems to be working just fine. But I don't dare posting any pics of it right now. Suffice to say, it's filthy enough that most of the forum members would motion for banning me permanently if they saw it. :nervous: Either way, the setup is roughly 1-2-1 + 1-2-3, if that makes any sense to you guys.

As far as method is concerned, I just compare the fretted note on the 12th fret to the harmonic and then adjust accordingly.

 

[constant mesh]

Re: Intonation quandry

As far as method is concerned, I just compare the fretted note on the 12th fret to the harmonic and then adjust accordingly.

This is not the way to go, the harmonic note could be off by few cents. Leave the harmonics alone, just compare the 12th fret to the open string, because that's the idea behind intonation - you wanna have the same pitch on the 12th fret as you do on an open string because they are exactly 11+1 semitones apart. Frets are a fixed system, but harmonics can deviate a bit

If you're still puzzled by this, altough you're quite confident in your setup, then I advise you to try what I've said before. Get a fresh pack, set the initial intonation very flat by the pattern you provided, then put the strings on. If you mess with the intonation as-is, you might not end up with good results.

I'd like to point out one more thing. It might be your nut that has messed up slots so some of the strings might sit a little further back than others.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Intonation quandry

The exact pattern depends on whether the saddle blocks are all facing the same way, on what string gauges you employ, on the neck pitch angle and on your truss rod adjustment.

+1. It varies.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Intonation quandry

This is not the way to go, the harmonic note could be off by few cents.

I don't think so.

There is a pretty serious problem with 12th fret intonation maybe not being right on 5, and pretty much never on 1 unless you had good luck and a really good luthier.

 

[Coma]

Re: Intonation quandry

This is not the way to go, the harmonic note could be off by few cents. Leave the harmonics alone, just compare the 12th fret to the open string, because that's the idea behind intonation - you wanna have the same pitch on the 12th fret as you do on an open string because they are exactly 11+1 semitones apart. Frets are a fixed system, but harmonics can deviate a bit

I tried this yesterday, seems my intonation was fine, didn't ahve to change a thing. Either I'm really, really crap at setting up my guitar, or very, very lucky. Or maybe it's just the ghost in the machine :scratchch Could also be that the bridge is a bit worn and banged about and thus prone to little deviations from how a mint condition bridge would behave. Either way, it seems to be working.

P.S. The pattern is not correct if you use a wound G. It's terrible, actually. This is also why people complain about intonation on Teles; they are using a plain G on a bridge that was designed for a wound G.

Didn't they fix that with the modern Tele bridges? It hought it was only the vintage reissues that came with the traditional 3-piece saddles?

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Intonation quandry

Yep. I was referring to three saddle bridges, of course. I guess it's a bad habit, but that's what I think of when someone says Telecaster, because that's what I'm used to. I wouldn't call it a "fix," because it wasn't broken. It works just fine if used as designed. The intonation problems are really just users not knowing that those bridges were designed to work with a wound G. So, the "change" to six saddle bridges was made to suit the widespread stringing practices of players, not to "fix" something that was broken. Outdated, yes, but not broken.

But, I digress.

If your guitar plays in tune, don't worry about where the saddles sit.

 

[Coma]

Re: Intonation quandry

If your guitar plays in tune, don't worry about where the saddles sit.

I don't But, y'know, an inquisitve mind and all that. Also, I have an essay to write, and endless webcrawling for guitar knowledge is endlessly more fun.

 

[constant mesh]

Re: Intonation quandry

I don't think so.

There is a pretty serious problem with 12th fret intonation maybe not being right on 5, and pretty much never on 1 unless you had good luck and a really good luthier.

What you said doesn't make sense. At least to me it doesn't. A harmonic note is neither a fretted note nor an open string note. Intonation however relies on a specifically defined measures between two octaves. That's 12 frets on the guitar and nothing will ever change the way they are on a particular guitar. So if your saddle won't allow any adjustment but you're still not satisfied, it's either the bridge location or slightly inaccurate scale.

I refretted my acoustic this spring and that particular problem of sharps disappeared. But take in consideration the neck relief can now be safely set to .005'', but before .012'' was nearly sufficient to get a decent tone without choking.
Almost any guitar experiences (or can) sharps up to the 12th fret, even if it's spot on open/12th fret. This is contributed by action and relief.

I don't wanna represent my experiences as axioms, but I have never had any problems setting the intonation on a healthy guitar with the method I described. Intonation is something you struggle with so if one string wants to stay sharp, just compensate and listen to some open chords for any dissonance.

We bedroom players are completely anal about these things. If it sounds right and feels right, just plug it in and play it ffs. I know lots of pro musicians that just set the intonation by ear, as long as barres sound nice and articulate that's fine with them. And you might also be familiar with studio musicians keepin ther guitars slightly out of tune for particular parts or songs just to give us the ... friggin' headaches and heated debates :28:

 

[uOpt]

Re: Intonation quandry

What you said doesn't make sense. At least to me it doesn't. A harmonic note is neither a fretted note nor an open string note. Intonation however relies on a specifically defined measures between two octaves. That's 12 frets on the guitar and nothing will ever change the way they are on a particular guitar. So if your saddle won't allow any adjustment but you're still not satisfied, it's either the bridge location or slightly inaccurate scale.

Uh, a lot, in fast most, of guitars don't ever get a really on-target F on the low E-string on the first fret. The nut is holding up the string and the string stiffness doesn't help. You can't move the fret to compensate because then all the other notes would be off. A well-cut nut and thinner strings help. There's compensated nuts, too.

 

[Coma]

Re: Intonation quandry

You can't move the fret to compensate because then all the other notes would be off.

But you can get one of these :naughty:

 

[tubecrunch]

Re: Intonation quandry

Mass produced electric guitar strings are typically inconsistent. Why? Part of the reason is the fact we play an instrument with adjustable intonation. Therefore, the allowance for accuracy is pretty wide. It's part of the reason the strings are so cheap, manufacturers waste less material. It's a small part of the reason that decent acoustic strings are more expensive. A large amount of research and testing goes into designing classical strings that will play in tune. Every time I change a set of strings at least one of my saddles needs adjustment ( if I whip out the tuner and check). I'm perfectly happy not checking as long as I don't notice... my lp saddles have been all over the place in the 30 years I've owned it.

 

[XPAULPITT]

Re: Intonation quandry

Ive always just adjusted my saddle until the note was intonated. I never cared if the pattern on the saddles lookd a certain way. I think it just happen that when it is properly intonated the saddles just end up in that position. I always wondered how those PRS bridges sound without being able to adjust individual saddles. I guess it is pretty rare that a guitar is perfectly intonated on every string and every fret anyway. I know mine arent. I guess we can just get them as good as possible.

 

[Hellion]

Re: Intonation quandry

I've never found a "formula", so to speak. Fix it so the octaves are true and go from there. Guitars are incapable of being totally "in tune", so it's always a compromise in getting as close as you can.

 

[astrozombie]

Re: Intonation quandry

well... not necessarily.. but in my experience it does kind of end up that way. on my bridge they don't all look the same but they do more or less follow that pattern.