Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

[cwebb]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Thanks for the info. I have two Epi Les Pauls. One came with Gibson 57's and she sounds real nice. I'm leaving that alone. But the second one which will be arriving in a day or two will have Epiphone Pro-Buckers or something. I've heard the Epiphone pickups aren't all that good but I will plug it in first and listen.

I do have some Duncan's in my box of parts here. I got a JB, an Alnico II Pro, a Jazz Model neck, and a Pearly Gates set.

Depending what style you're goin for the sd 59s are pretty sick for classic rock to some metal (metal only if solid state, with a tube amp you have to dial in the gain quit a bit)

 

[Stratman]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

I suggest changing to 50’s wiring scheme rather than changing CAPs.

Gibson actually makes those pickups and shipped them to Epiphone’s Qingdao factory.

Better off with new POT’s, Switch, and of course Seymour Duncan pups

 

[blueman335]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Depending what style you're goin for the sd 59s are pretty sick for classic rock to some metal

Many guys here complain about '59N's being boomy/bassy in their LP's.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Many guys here complain about '59N's being boomy/bassy in their LP's.

I have never had that issue with my LP's and a 59….but it is real. I don't know how common it is really. But as I always say - listen to the GUITAR before you start getting too hung up on the pups.

A pickup can only amplify what is there, or take away. If the guitar is flabby, you'll get loud flabby, even from a tight pup. If there are no highs, a full shred will make a really loud thin crappy high end.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

If 99.9% of what you hear is not the cap, hypothetically speaking, them the cap accounts for 0.1% of the sound, and I think even that's being generous. A lot of guitarists are purists / vintage fetishists, and I only wish they would admit they want paper in oil caps for the sake of vintage correctness, and not because they sound like anything special.

One description said paper in oil caps have a "warm, creamy, sparkly" sound, which to me, sound more like instructions on what you're supposed to hear, and not an impartial recounting of what is actually heard. When you roll off the highs, "warm" and "creamy" are an inevitable outcome no matter what sort of cap you use. The idea that you wouldn't achieve these tonal qualities until you drop cash on paper in oil caps is absurd. And "sparkly", I thought the whole point of a tone knob was to send sparkle away.

Sounds like you've not tried PIO.
Quite frankly casting aspersions on anything you've not had the opportunity to try is stepping through the door of foolishness.

No-one in their right mind would ever say caps are a very important part in the overall scheme of things......but once you have all the right parts (nice tube amp, decent quality guitars/pickups/electronics) then it becomes the only thing left to experiment on. It also takes all these parts in place to be able to appreciate whether there is any difference to your ear - no point in PIO-ing up playing through a Line 6 for example.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

I have never had that issue with my LP's and a 59….but it is real. I don't know how common it is really.

True, but there's been enough posts here over the years to raise it as a potential issue for someone considering a '59N in an LP. Just so they know it's a possibility. I don't want someone blind-sided by that, especially if they're bass sensitive. They can be boomy/bassy in some 335's too as I've found out. I haven't had an issue with them in SG's. Seems like it can pop up as an issue certain warm woods and/or guitar designs. I've cured it it with a mag swap, usually with an A3, although some guys prefer A4's.

 

[DreX]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Sounds like you've not tried PIO.
Quite frankly casting aspersions on anything you've not had the opportunity to try is stepping through the door of foolishness.

I have PIO caps in two Strats. I would never have thought to seek them out specifically, but D Allen offers them as an impulse buy at checkout, so what the heck. I installed them because they were there, but I didn't do any A/B test wiring because YouTube has done the honors several times over, and I seriously doubt most people who sing the praises of PIO set up direct A/B toggle tests, either. More like the thinking goes "if that's what Eric Clapton used for his "Woman" tone then they must be the best."

No-one in their right mind would ever say caps are a very important part in the overall scheme of things......but once you have all the right parts (nice tube amp, decent quality guitars/pickups/electronics) then it becomes the only thing left to experiment on. It also takes all these parts in place to be able to appreciate whether there is any difference to your ear - no point in PIO-ing up playing through a Line 6 for example.

I disagree with every inch of this paragraph.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

If you've done no a/b testing then you have no right to make any conclusions one way or another. You put new pickups in with a PIO....its just a new tone with the cap being part of the whole. And those 'tests' on youtube are not only a complete joke, they border on propaganda for the agenda of whoever is making the vid.

I have pio in a few guitars. Yes I did a/b testing. No, not every guitar made a difference with caps. Yes I had to listen very hard with the amp on clean tone to hear any difference.

You seem to continually make these 'inferiority complex' type remarks. An inverse snobbery thing where you seem to resent people with more expensive gear it seems - and here it goes again with your EC reference.


And the last paragraph - well, if you have cheap pickups that have no clarity, a guitar that is dead or flat sounding, a modelling amp that sounds a bit squashed or cheap electrics in your guitar that don't give you the full signal then you won't be able to hear the subtleties as they will have been lost before they hit the speaker.

 

[DreX]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

If you've done no a/b testing then you have no right to make any conclusions one way or another. You put new pickups in with a PIO....its just a new tone with the cap being part of the whole. And those 'tests' on youtube are not only a complete joke, they border on propaganda for the agenda of whoever is making the vid.

I have pio in a few guitars. Yes I did a/b testing. No, not every guitar made a difference with caps. Yes I had to listen very hard with the amp on clean tone to hear any difference.

This just reinforces my point earlier about people taking a 0.1% sound difference and blowing it completely out of proportion. You're not even denying the difference is minuscule.

You seem to continually make these 'inferiority complex' type remarks. An inverse snobbery thing where you seem to resent people with more expensive gear it seems - and here it goes again with your EC reference.

How is "inverse snobbery" a bad thing? Call it whatever you want, but I'm strictly interested in getting at the truth of things.

And the last paragraph - well, if you have cheap pickups that have no clarity, a guitar that is dead or flat sounding, a modelling amp that sounds a bit squashed or cheap electrics in your guitar that don't give you the full signal then you won't be able to hear the subtleties as they will have been lost before they hit the speaker.

You can see I have a JCM 2000 in my avatar there, so the modeling amp issue is moot. As for how the rest of the wiring affects tone, I've never heard that it has any bearing on tone, only that nicer components are less prone to failure, again, without any evidence that cheap components have a higher failure rate to begin with.

The truth is, it's more than a pet peeve of mine to see people conflate vintage correctness with superior performance. Just because they made something a certain way in the 50's doesn't mean it necessarily performs any better or worse than modern alternatives. Objectively speaking, most expensive guitar gear is high cost/high priced on account of vintage correctness in its construction and components, and not because of superior performance.

Just recently I saw someone recommend replacing this type of selector

with one of these

and were unable/unwilling to back up their recommendation with any sound reasoning. Maybe there is a difference that actually matters, but I don't believe the people who generally recommend one over the other have any idea what the difference it outside of the price tag and an awareness than vintage Strats featured the latter. Did someone hook them up to a flicking machine machine with a counter and find that one gave out after 10000 flicks and the other after 20000?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

You have a particular mindset which is a bias, and it has caused plenty of threads to be closed because of your mindless bickering. For some reason you feel you opinion is more valid than someone elses, despite the fact that no-one elses opinion matters in the least to someone else.

My point here in this thread is to keep an open mind (and inform other to do the same) about these things. This is very obvious in the content of the posts I've made. Nobody is blowing anything out of proportion, you merely think they are. This seems to be a common theme with you.
Also you seem to think every comment is aimed at you instead of it being an example of general information - the amp issue being a prime example. Insecurity? or narcissistic personality disorder maybe?


And upgrading electronics has a bearing on reliability, some quality in construction, some improvement in shielding and interference. Once again you have made assumptions.

 

[jumble jumble]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Replacing the switch thing - I've done that quite recently, and it was because I bought a cheap Squier that came with the "boxed in" switch. Out of the box, it was already crackly when used. I was doing a full rewire anyway, and obviously I have normal 5-ways lying around, so I put one in. problem solved. In general though, I'm a believer that if it works, it works. I recently re-wired my #1 Strat with Alpha mini-pots, which are absolute anathema to a lot of purists. They're small! They're cheap! THEY'RE WRONG! But I put them in because they feel great to turn. If they need cleaning (or even replacing) after 5 years of play then I guess I'll... look a fool?

DreX isn't suggesting his opinion is more valid than anyone else's. He's merely pointing out that a lot of this stuff simply isn't backed up by any decent evidence ("anecdotal evidence" is an oxymoron). The very definition of unscientific. The null hypothesis is that with all else equal, the type of capacitor has no tangible effect on sound. The hypothesis being put forward is that it does produce a tangible effect. This would count as an "extraordinary claim", given that it would invalidate a lot of what is known about electricity. Therefore, it requires strong evidence to become accepted as fact. Unfortunately, a non-blind test is nowhere near strong enough, as it is massively susceptible to experimenter bias. A double blind ABX test would be the best.

If a hypothesis is not reliably shown to be true, then we continue to act as if it isn't true. This is part of the underlying scientific principle that has led us to a point where you are able to read these words that I've typed here. If we took anecdotal evidence as fact then progress would be hugely hampered - the knowledge base would be full of "facts" that were unreliable, or even downright false. We'd try and build something and it wouldn't work.

The rise of anti-science sentiment in our modern culture is a real shame. If it really takes hold then human progress will stall.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

I recently re-wired my #1 Strat with Alpha mini-pots, which are absolute anathema to a lot of purists. They're small! They're cheap! THEY'RE WRONG! But I put them in because they feel great to turn. If they need cleaning (or even replacing) after 5 years of play then I guess I'll... look a fool?

Or you'll drop another 50 cents to replace them.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

The FACT is music is full of OPINIONS and PERSONAL PREFERENCES that many treat as facts. Those people are the problem.

While I am not a fan of DreX's style….He raises some very valid points/issues.

I often do the same thing (in my own very special not-so-DreX way) in the amp room when guys are getting all fidgety about a $300 fuzz box. I have actually taught Sensation & Perception at a major university and I know what you can and can't hear. Using the word "Better" is a dangerous game.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Thanks for the info. I have two Epi Les Pauls. One came with Gibson 57's and she sounds real nice. I'm leaving that alone. But the second one which will be arriving in a day or two will have Epiphone Pro-Buckers or something. I've heard the Epiphone pickups aren't all that good but I will plug it in first and listen.

I do have some Duncan's in my box of parts here. I got a JB, an Alnico II Pro, a Jazz Model neck, and a Pearly Gates set.

I would try the A2Pb + PGn in an Epi !

 

[blueman335]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

I would try the A2Pb + PGn in an Epi !

I have an A2P set in an Epi LP Std, and love it. I was really hoping my PG's would have sounded that good.

 

[jimijames]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Just one last thing about caps... They send a frequency range of the original signal (depending on their value, lower the value higher the frequencies) to ground.

The tolerance of a cap has more impact on the sound than it's composition (ceramic, polypropylene, PIO, etc.) Because none of the signal going through a cap actually reaches the output jack. From the perspective of the electrons fleeing rapidly, it's just a tunnel some of their friends go down never to be seen again.

So while I understand the "if you haven't tried it how can you know, like really know man" line of thought, we're discussing/debating about the physical properties of electricity. It is akin to madness to suggest that the electrons we just purposely took out of the circuit somehow found a way back in, contravening the laws of God and man.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

 

[blueman335]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Just one last thing about caps... They send a frequency range of the original signal (depending on their value, lower the value higher the frequencies) to ground.

The tolerance of a cap has more impact on the sound than it's composition (ceramic, polypropylene, PIO, etc.) Because none of the signal going through a cap actually reaches the output jack.

Good point.

 

[SirJackdeFuzz]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

Many guys here complain about '59N's being boomy/bassy in their LP's.

. . . but is it really ?

My brother has a set in his LP Std. and i do NOT find the '59 neck bassy at all !

 

[Aceman]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

I would try the A2Pb + PGn in an Epi !

I have an A2P set in an Epi LP Std, and love it. I was really hoping my PG's would have sounded that good.

The Balance Set; Bright in neck, dark in Bridge = Ahhhh

 

[blueman335]

Re: Is changing the caps in an Epiphone Les Paul worth considering?

. . . but is it really ?

My brother has a set in his LP Std. and i do NOT find the '59 neck bassy at all !

It doesn't happen every time in every LP, woods vary. But it's been mentioned here many times by members who were less than happy about it. It's more bass-prone than most PU's.