JB 35th anniversary commemorative to use or not?
- Thread starter SwedishHumbucker
- Start date
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Exactly. And not really predictable either.
If you are collecting, then go collect. Buy stuff, catalogue it, and put it away.
If you are playing, then play it.
It drives me nuts when people cost analyze the sale/resale value of stuff that very clearly has almost no resale value. Or the resale is unpredictable.
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Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
LOL - Assuming you can put it together....but yeah.
And you could use it carefully without destroying it too.
I have a 30+ year old Duncan Distortion in my #1 Les Paul, played to hell and back. I just took a look. A little WD40 wipe down on the slugs, a little;e Novus plastic polish on the Slug coil, and it a once over with a lemony fresh wipe, good as new. Assuming I kept the full inside wire length and did a nice job.
In fact - I looked at most of my gigging guitars. Not a thing wrong. Almost brand new, and I don't take great care of them.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
The difference between a new and used Duncan, even an old/classic one, is like $10-$30. You're not going to make a big profit on an unused Duncan. If you're a collector and like the novelty, ok. Otherwise, just use it.
Bill Dennis
New member
Why would this be any different than any other JB where it would be unique or rare? If memory serves, SD has said they didn't change the formula, have they not? If that's the case it should be no different. With the Larry Dimarzio revelation that the EVH 5150 Kramer had a JB in it, I expected the JB market to go @p3$h1t. Doesn't seem to be the case really.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
What changed is the bobbin material, potentially wire suppliers, magnet suppliers, and their own manufacturing processes, e.g. old ones had roughcast, new production has polished, which does make a difference in sound. My understanding is they've also changed their potting process a bit over the years. Subtle changes in manufacturing can result in a detectable audible change. Might not be significant to most average players or people, but there are plenty of us that have noticed.
Masta' C
Well-known member
Formula = 2 bobbins wound with 44 AWG magnet wire to ~8.2K each, A5 magnet, one row fillister screws, one row slugs, nickel silver baseplate
Sure, that core "formula" hasn't changed, but, as Beau mentioned, the physical makeup of many of the parts used in the production of the pickups and even some of the manufacturing characteristics have changed significantly since the very early iterations of the "JB".
Newer versions are close enough that they still "sound like a JB" to most people, but there are subtle differences in tone and playing feel that true JB fans have come to appreciate with the older versions.
Masta' C
Well-known member
By the way, just got done taking some measurements on the 4 vintage '70s "The JB Model" pickups I have left in my possession. As with the many others I owned previously and sold, there's a range of values, though these 4 are actually more consistent than many other examples I've had from the same era. Measured back-to-back (72*F ambient temperature):
Pickup #1: 16.4K (8.1 + 8.3)
Pickup #2: 16.8K (8.4 + 8.4)
Pickup #3: 16.7K (single conductor and earliest build of these 4)
Pickup #4: 16.6K (8.1 + 8.5)
I've had early JB's that dipped as low as 15.2K and had coil offsets as high as 1.0K. You would never see that kind of variance today! Just goes to show that a lot of things differed in the early days.
Pickup #1: 16.4K (8.1 + 8.3)
Pickup #2: 16.8K (8.4 + 8.4)
Pickup #3: 16.7K (single conductor and earliest build of these 4)
Pickup #4: 16.6K (8.1 + 8.5)
I've had early JB's that dipped as low as 15.2K and had coil offsets as high as 1.0K. You would never see that kind of variance today! Just goes to show that a lot of things differed in the early days.
Bill Dennis
New member
Those are presumably all done with the same old school materials and methods and vary wildly. That tells me that the materials are the least impactful thing we could be looking at. Bobbin material? Not relevant. Wire supplier? If they are making it to spec also not really relevant. If they did accept close enough/wider tolerances/etc, then sure, its possible. Rough vs Smooth? Maybe, a very small amount but I have done that dance. Its subtle at most in my experience. Potting process? That's a tough one for me too. Mfg process? Well that's vague enough it could mean almost anything so I cannot rule that one out. Its possible I suppose.
I don't have enough first hand experience with the old stuff to say anyone is wrong, but on the surface the science doesn't add up for me. Tension, wind patters etc make more sense to me than anything else but if they changed those, then the formula was changed... We will never really know I suppose. Its ultimately a moot point for me. I use what I have and get on with it. I wasted enough time waiting for that next perfect thing
devastone
New member
Fixed that for you.
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Masta' C
Well-known member
Hey, I totally get where you're coming from and why suggesting the early ones being "different" might be a tough pill to swallow if you haven't had any hands-on experience with them.
Personally, I've had my hands on more of the first-gen pickups than probably anyone aside from MJ and SD himself! Even some prominent SD insiders (employees who used to post here regularly and were well respected in their knowledge and experience) were very vocal about the early ones being the best version of the "JB" SD has made.
Is old vs new a "night and day" difference? Probably not to the average person listening to them in a gainy mix on their laptop. But to a JB fanatic? Yeah, there are definitely some qualities about the originals that the new ones simply don't replicate.
I don't know if you've ever seen the Antiquity vs 35th vs standard production video from our own Zenmindbeginner (made for SD), but through a good set of speakers, you can clearly tell differences between them, even though the "formula" is largely the same:
If you can come to terms with that, then you should be able to understand that the originals also shared the JB "formula", but had even more differences going on than the 3 exampled above.
Personally, I've had my hands on more of the first-gen pickups than probably anyone aside from MJ and SD himself! Even some prominent SD insiders (employees who used to post here regularly and were well respected in their knowledge and experience) were very vocal about the early ones being the best version of the "JB" SD has made.
Is old vs new a "night and day" difference? Probably not to the average person listening to them in a gainy mix on their laptop. But to a JB fanatic? Yeah, there are definitely some qualities about the originals that the new ones simply don't replicate.
I don't know if you've ever seen the Antiquity vs 35th vs standard production video from our own Zenmindbeginner (made for SD), but through a good set of speakers, you can clearly tell differences between them, even though the "formula" is largely the same:
If you can come to terms with that, then you should be able to understand that the originals also shared the JB "formula", but had even more differences going on than the 3 exampled above.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
Not true. Your 'science' is so superficial that you aren't considering the part of the science that makes the difference.
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...nd-the-35th-anniversary?p=4055806#post4055806
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...than-the-regular-models?p=4333431#post4333431
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...-bobbin-matter-in-sound?p=4843666#post4843666
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...ginal-jb-and-current-jb?p=4924769#post4924769
https://forum.seymourduncan.com/for...1970-s-the-jb-model-yet?p=5674528#post5674528
there's much more on here, but I'll leave it to you to search what you're interested in.
Mr. 80's
New member
Can you even fairly compare an old vintage one to a new one? The only right answer to that is a big no. The old ones are old and degraded from age (wires and magnets) and are going to sound different from a new one. They don't even sound like they did when they were new anymore. Someday the newer ones will be old and degraded and sound different from when they were new as well. The same goes with comparing an old vintage pedal to a new one of the same original specs. The only difference heard is basically up to age and components aging and drifting and not much else. I'd rather buy new and let time do its magic.
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Bill Dennis
New member
I see Franks opinion and claims he makes about things. He conveniently leaves out the actual data backing up those statements. "It sounds different" is not evidence of anything. Especially with the smallest of nuances we are talking about here. There are just too many variables not the least of which is the human ear and brain.
We will have to agree to disagree. I am not saying there are not or could not be differences. I am just saying that "Frank said so" is not an entirely persuasive argument to me. Especially when they also say things like EVH stands for Evenly Voiced Harmonics and JB does not refer to Jeff Beck.
beaubrummels
Well-known member
You're kind of lumping one former employees statements with wider company marketing, which is different. He's not going to post test data because work done for an employer is protected intellectual property, likely with NDAs still en force. I have multiple JBs from different eras and have installed them in the same guitar, played through the same rig, and I noticed the difference. Frank's comments just offer insight into why that would be.
Masta' C
Well-known member
Oh, but it is...is a witness' account not admissible in court?
Look, don't believe the hype if you don't want to. No one's going to make you.
But, have some respect for knowledgeable people who have been fortunate enough to have played old vs new back-to-back, in the same guitars, through the same rigs.
Even if it's not "science" to you, because they didn't record frequency and response graphs for your convenience to "prove" their points, the collective impressions from actual users are still more valid than your simple assumptions, which are based on nothing at all by comparison.
Bill Dennis
New member
Oh, but it is...is a witness' account not admissible in court?
Look, don't believe the hype if you don't want to. No one's going to make you.
But, have some respect for knowledgeable people who have been fortunate enough to have played old vs new back-to-back, in the same guitars, through the same rigs.
Even if it's not "science" to you, because they didn't record frequency and response graphs for your convenience to "prove" their points, the collective impressions from actual users are still more valid than your simple assumptions, which are based on nothing at all by comparison.
1) Witness accounts are known to be the least reliable evidence by far
2) I don't
3) Did they really play them back to back or was there 30-40 minutes at least between while they swapped the pickups etc? Humans don't remember things clearly more than a few minutes at the very most. See point 1 about witnesses.
4) I have played Duncan's since the 80's. Old vs new 59's etc are something I have experience with for example. Just because I don't have specific experience with the JB doesn't make my opinion on old vs new invalid or based on nothing.
5) I didn't comment on the collective. I was very specifically speaking to Falbo's comments. He had a vested interested in selling pickups and was not likely say they are the same, don't waste your money even if that were the case. Lots of companies sell "special editions" for more $$ that really are not. Its hardly a new concept. I understand why he may not want to / be able to share the data but at the same time without data, its just talking points that may or may not have basis in fact. I don't take any manufacturers comments at face value. Some are more honest than other but they all have an agenda and spin things accordingly. They real data is often not available and I have make he best decision I can without it most of the time but XYZ person saying so most certainly does not make it so.
If you believe you hear a difference then you do. Things like confirmation bias are real. I have put the same pickup back into the same guitar an hour after trying something else and thought it was different sounding... People think Led Zeppelin was all Les Paul or that Van Halen was all Frankenstrat. Neither is true but its gospel truth to those "witnesses". What happens between the ears is for more influential than what happens between the coils in most cases. Thats why double blind tests are so important. The older is better mantra is not something I have ever believed. The correct question is do I like what I hear or not?
Bill Dennis
New member
No they are not. If they are willing to massage the truth in one area, then everything they say requires extra scrutiny. I don't think Seymour is a bad guy but choices were made. I still buy their stuff but I don't take the company line as gospel truth either
Masta' C
Well-known member
Man, that's incredibly pessimistic. (Do you get that a lot?)
You're clearly a guy that knows what he knows. No worries...If you want to confirm your mere opinions to the level of "proof" you seem to be demanding from others, feel free to grab a vintage "The JB Model", do the data analysis yourself, and share your "scientific" results with the rest of us!
Money where your mouth is and all that....
You're clearly a guy that knows what he knows. No worries...If you want to confirm your mere opinions to the level of "proof" you seem to be demanding from others, feel free to grab a vintage "The JB Model", do the data analysis yourself, and share your "scientific" results with the rest of us!
Money where your mouth is and all that....
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