Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
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kramersteen
PowerMetalRaph
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Haha yeah magic will help. They can be a hassle that's for sure but most tremolos can.
What guitar is it on?
Keep your string winds to a bare minimum on the pegs. keep your nut and saddles clean/lubed. Setup the guitar with new strings and a good setup. I find usually its a few small things that will help in the end.
Haha yeah magic will help. They can be a hassle that's for sure but most tremolos can.
What guitar is it on?
Keep your string winds to a bare minimum on the pegs. keep your nut and saddles clean/lubed. Setup the guitar with new strings and a good setup. I find usually its a few small things that will help in the end.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
a well cut nut made from good materials like bone or tusq.
Lip balm or expensive nut lubricant if you like that.
also...you can get strat trems to stay in tune...but you have to choose....either it stays in tune when you dive bomb, or it stays in tune when you bend strings.
The problems lies in the nut. Even the best cut and well lubricated nut will still go out of tune due to strings sticking on them when you either tighten (bend up) or loosen (dive) your strings. The trick is to "train" your strings to stay in tune.
I bend a lot in my phrasing, so i find that i like to set and stretch my strings so that of they go out, a quick bend or tug on the trem pops them back in. If i dive a long way, yes they will probably go out of tune (they usually go sharp) so i can fix it quickly with a quick tug on the arm (i set my trem floating) or a bend. This equalizes the tension of the string again over the nut. I just expect it to go out with dives because i know its easy to pull strings back into tune.
You can choose to have your strings stay in tune even with the craziest dives, but then they will tend to go out when you bend up. The fix in this case is to drop the trem and the strings will go back in tune.
Either way, you need to choose bending up, or divebombing as the default. For me, i just tune the strings from the top down. Then i vigorously bend the string (3 semitones) or use the regular stretching method. The string goes flat. Retune. bend. repeat. retune etc. When a series of 3 vigorous bends do not upset the tuning, your string will be quite stable (until you divebomb). But never fear - divebombing will make your string go sharp and a quick bend will bring it back into tune.
For divebombing, you tune from the top down and stretch as usual. Then do a massive divebomb., It will go out for sure. Retune all 6 strings. divebomb again. Keep divebombing and retuning. eventually, divebombing will keep the strings in tune...but at the expense of keeping them in tune when you bend.
There is a video somewhere on you tube of a guy in Italy demostrating this.
Ok...so once you have worked out whether you want you trings to stay in tune when you pull up (or bend) or dive bomb, then you need to get your trem set up nice.
Make sure the strings do not pass over any metal edges inside the bridge particularly under the saddle and through the saddle. The only point of contact should be the curved part oif the saddle where the string leaves the bridge. Use some fine wet and dry to make this surface as smooth as possible. a very fine smear of lip balm is good here too.
Make sure the spring claw is even.
Make sure the nut is made of good stuff and well cut and lubricated.
Make sure the tuners are good quality and have plenty of nice tight even string wraps.
Make sure the string retainers are smooth too with no sharp edges (wet and dry again) and lubricated.
Its up to you whether you want a floating bridge or not, but if its a 6 screw model (vintage style) set all the screws even, then give the middle 4 a quarter turn looser than the outer two.
This all works if you are patient enough to get the details right.
a well cut nut made from good materials like bone or tusq.
Lip balm or expensive nut lubricant if you like that.
also...you can get strat trems to stay in tune...but you have to choose....either it stays in tune when you dive bomb, or it stays in tune when you bend strings.
The problems lies in the nut. Even the best cut and well lubricated nut will still go out of tune due to strings sticking on them when you either tighten (bend up) or loosen (dive) your strings. The trick is to "train" your strings to stay in tune.
I bend a lot in my phrasing, so i find that i like to set and stretch my strings so that of they go out, a quick bend or tug on the trem pops them back in. If i dive a long way, yes they will probably go out of tune (they usually go sharp) so i can fix it quickly with a quick tug on the arm (i set my trem floating) or a bend. This equalizes the tension of the string again over the nut. I just expect it to go out with dives because i know its easy to pull strings back into tune.
You can choose to have your strings stay in tune even with the craziest dives, but then they will tend to go out when you bend up. The fix in this case is to drop the trem and the strings will go back in tune.
Either way, you need to choose bending up, or divebombing as the default. For me, i just tune the strings from the top down. Then i vigorously bend the string (3 semitones) or use the regular stretching method. The string goes flat. Retune. bend. repeat. retune etc. When a series of 3 vigorous bends do not upset the tuning, your string will be quite stable (until you divebomb). But never fear - divebombing will make your string go sharp and a quick bend will bring it back into tune.
For divebombing, you tune from the top down and stretch as usual. Then do a massive divebomb., It will go out for sure. Retune all 6 strings. divebomb again. Keep divebombing and retuning. eventually, divebombing will keep the strings in tune...but at the expense of keeping them in tune when you bend.
There is a video somewhere on you tube of a guy in Italy demostrating this.
Ok...so once you have worked out whether you want you trings to stay in tune when you pull up (or bend) or dive bomb, then you need to get your trem set up nice.
Make sure the strings do not pass over any metal edges inside the bridge particularly under the saddle and through the saddle. The only point of contact should be the curved part oif the saddle where the string leaves the bridge. Use some fine wet and dry to make this surface as smooth as possible. a very fine smear of lip balm is good here too.
Make sure the spring claw is even.
Make sure the nut is made of good stuff and well cut and lubricated.
Make sure the tuners are good quality and have plenty of nice tight even string wraps.
Make sure the string retainers are smooth too with no sharp edges (wet and dry again) and lubricated.
Its up to you whether you want a floating bridge or not, but if its a 6 screw model (vintage style) set all the screws even, then give the middle 4 a quarter turn looser than the outer two.
This all works if you are patient enough to get the details right.
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
The nut is one key element. In short, it must not hold on to the string, the string needs to be able to freely flow through it.
The second one is the string windings on the tuner. Few windings, and very tight. Pull very hard when putting them on, and stretch later.
Of course the trem itself must move freely and always return to the same position. No wiggling in the screws.
The nut is one key element. In short, it must not hold on to the string, the string needs to be able to freely flow through it.
The second one is the string windings on the tuner. Few windings, and very tight. Pull very hard when putting them on, and stretch later.
Of course the trem itself must move freely and always return to the same position. No wiggling in the screws.
LReese
Sausage Gravy
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Locking tuners are great! Just not necessary. Gibson175 gives good advice in his post.
Only thing to add is adjustment of the mounting screws. I typically adjust so without springs the 2 outer screws let the plate set flat to the body, any tighter (head towards the wood) the plate starts to raise off the body. The other 4 screws can be 1/4 turn or so from touching the plate.
All I do is install strings, tune and stretch then retune. I typically don't apply lube.
Locking tuners are great! Just not necessary. Gibson175 gives good advice in his post.
Only thing to add is adjustment of the mounting screws. I typically adjust so without springs the 2 outer screws let the plate set flat to the body, any tighter (head towards the wood) the plate starts to raise off the body. The other 4 screws can be 1/4 turn or so from touching the plate.
All I do is install strings, tune and stretch then retune. I typically don't apply lube.
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Locking tuners will not help if the set up is not right.
A nut that is too tight ill still bind w/or w/o locking tuners...saddles that catch string windings will still catch them w/ or w/o locking tuners.
I have a Strat that I can lay into with heavy vibrato useage and it comes back in tune every time...it stays in tune as good as any double locking system I've ever had and is a LOT less trouble than any of them were!
That said it does require a little time, effort and money spent...
What is the guitar in question??
Locking tuners will not help if the set up is not right.
A nut that is too tight ill still bind w/or w/o locking tuners...saddles that catch string windings will still catch them w/ or w/o locking tuners.
I have a Strat that I can lay into with heavy vibrato useage and it comes back in tune every time...it stays in tune as good as any double locking system I've ever had and is a LOT less trouble than any of them were!
That said it does require a little time, effort and money spent...
What is the guitar in question??
scottish
WeirdScienceologist
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
I only use 6 point trems on my strats. Honestly dont really have much problems with staying in tune. Id say the two most important things are the nut and saddles. They need to be smooth. If the string cant travel smoothly then nothing else you can do will matter.
I only use 6 point trems on my strats. Honestly dont really have much problems with staying in tune. Id say the two most important things are the nut and saddles. They need to be smooth. If the string cant travel smoothly then nothing else you can do will matter.
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
I have to step up and say this...Fender has really dropped the ball on the production of their vibrato bridges.
The top plate has a bevel cut into it that is key in moving the vibrato back and fourth and having it return to the same position every time. That bevel should not go past the holes drilled for the pivot screws...I have never seen a Fender that was cut "correctly" I have never had the tailpiece off of a vintage (50's or 60's) Strat but can tell you first hand that 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's and even all Custom Shop tailpieces are cut wrong. That bevel being cut like that causes the bridge to try and pivot on 2 different points...that causes extra work for the tailpiece itself, which causes friction and causes the unit not to want to return to the same rest position each time.
Also, the tremolo block is an issue...the holes drilled into the block are drilled so deeply on a Fender unit that the area on the strings where they are wound over and over to attach the ball end can actually make it up to the saddle area causing a lot of windings the possibility to get caught on the saddles...this is an issue that can cause strings to bind up when you depress the bar and not want to return back to the correct pitch when you release the bar. The only possible exception to this I have seen on a Fender brand unit as the Eric Johnson blocks...I know the early ones had more shallow string pockets drilled into them but I have heard that Fender changed it on the 3rd or so run out to now.
The saddles are also an issue...the hole in the saddle where the string passes through is so short that windings on the wound strings can get caught on it.
All of these issues have been addressed on the Callaham vibrato unit.
Now, I am not getting anything in return from Callaham, I do not work for Callaham and I have nothing to gain or loose in regards to Callaham but I will say this....Bill Callaham has taken the vintage Fender vibrato unit from a Strat and without adding locking pieces, without changing the entire design and without loosing the great vintage Stratocaster tone most of us are looking for he has made the unit 100 times "better" than it's Fender counterpart.
I use a Callaham vibrato and my Strat has the stock nut which has never been filed on and has never meed modded in any way...I use the stock Kluson style, non locking tuners and I do not use any graphite dust, Nut Sauce or any other tricks and it stays in tune like a boss.
The only thing I've done to it is I did swap out the Callaham springs for a set of Raw Vintage springs but past that I just pulled my Fender unit off (Which was a Fender Custom Shop unit) and replaced it with the Callaham...set up time was about 15 minutes and I was done.
FWIW, 2 or 3 friends of mine have tried my Strat since I put the Callaham unit on it and they have all gone off and put Callaham units on their Strats as well and each one of them has gotten the same amazing results I have,
I have to step up and say this...Fender has really dropped the ball on the production of their vibrato bridges.
The top plate has a bevel cut into it that is key in moving the vibrato back and fourth and having it return to the same position every time. That bevel should not go past the holes drilled for the pivot screws...I have never seen a Fender that was cut "correctly" I have never had the tailpiece off of a vintage (50's or 60's) Strat but can tell you first hand that 70's, 80's, 90's, 2000's and even all Custom Shop tailpieces are cut wrong. That bevel being cut like that causes the bridge to try and pivot on 2 different points...that causes extra work for the tailpiece itself, which causes friction and causes the unit not to want to return to the same rest position each time.
Also, the tremolo block is an issue...the holes drilled into the block are drilled so deeply on a Fender unit that the area on the strings where they are wound over and over to attach the ball end can actually make it up to the saddle area causing a lot of windings the possibility to get caught on the saddles...this is an issue that can cause strings to bind up when you depress the bar and not want to return back to the correct pitch when you release the bar. The only possible exception to this I have seen on a Fender brand unit as the Eric Johnson blocks...I know the early ones had more shallow string pockets drilled into them but I have heard that Fender changed it on the 3rd or so run out to now.
The saddles are also an issue...the hole in the saddle where the string passes through is so short that windings on the wound strings can get caught on it.
All of these issues have been addressed on the Callaham vibrato unit.
Now, I am not getting anything in return from Callaham, I do not work for Callaham and I have nothing to gain or loose in regards to Callaham but I will say this....Bill Callaham has taken the vintage Fender vibrato unit from a Strat and without adding locking pieces, without changing the entire design and without loosing the great vintage Stratocaster tone most of us are looking for he has made the unit 100 times "better" than it's Fender counterpart.
I use a Callaham vibrato and my Strat has the stock nut which has never been filed on and has never meed modded in any way...I use the stock Kluson style, non locking tuners and I do not use any graphite dust, Nut Sauce or any other tricks and it stays in tune like a boss.
The only thing I've done to it is I did swap out the Callaham springs for a set of Raw Vintage springs but past that I just pulled my Fender unit off (Which was a Fender Custom Shop unit) and replaced it with the Callaham...set up time was about 15 minutes and I was done.
FWIW, 2 or 3 friends of mine have tried my Strat since I put the Callaham unit on it and they have all gone off and put Callaham units on their Strats as well and each one of them has gotten the same amazing results I have,
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Here are pics of the issues I was talking about with the top plate.
Here is a Fender top plate...notice how the bevel goes down into the pivot holes and even at that not evenly.
Fender Custom shop plate:
Callaham plate:
Here are pics of the bridge string pockets.
Here is a pic of a Fender block notice how deep the ball ends are:
Here is a Callaham block, notice how close the ball ends are to the back edge of the block:
This pic shows the hole in the saddle I was talking about...this is a Callaham saddle next to a vintage Fender saddles next to a new Custom Shop Fender saddle.
Notice how the new Fender is shorter than the old one but the Callaham is longer than them both.
I know these things might sound nit picky but they all make a difference and al of them wrapped up together make a HUGE difference.
I'm not at all trying to be a commercial for Callaham parts but Bill has done the work to improve the design and it shows.
If there was another vibrato bridge on the market that did what the Callaham did I'd mention them too but I have yet to find another!
Here are pics of the issues I was talking about with the top plate.
Here is a Fender top plate...notice how the bevel goes down into the pivot holes and even at that not evenly.
Fender Custom shop plate:
Callaham plate:
Here are pics of the bridge string pockets.
Here is a pic of a Fender block notice how deep the ball ends are:
Here is a Callaham block, notice how close the ball ends are to the back edge of the block:
This pic shows the hole in the saddle I was talking about...this is a Callaham saddle next to a vintage Fender saddles next to a new Custom Shop Fender saddle.
Notice how the new Fender is shorter than the old one but the Callaham is longer than them both.
I know these things might sound nit picky but they all make a difference and al of them wrapped up together make a HUGE difference.
I'm not at all trying to be a commercial for Callaham parts but Bill has done the work to improve the design and it shows.
If there was another vibrato bridge on the market that did what the Callaham did I'd mention them too but I have yet to find another!
scottish
WeirdScienceologist
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
^^
I agree with all of this.
I dont think you need all callaham parts to stay in tune however. Dont get me wrong, they are thee best fender parts on the market IMO but they also arent cheap. I think with basic maintenance and a little DIY if necessary you can use stock vintage 6 point trems and stay in tune
^^
I agree with all of this.
I dont think you need all callaham parts to stay in tune however. Dont get me wrong, they are thee best fender parts on the market IMO but they also arent cheap. I think with basic maintenance and a little DIY if necessary you can use stock vintage 6 point trems and stay in tune
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Locking tuners and no string trees do help 75 % of the time. I'm not saying these other issues spoken to don't matter though.
Locking tuners and no string trees do help 75 % of the time. I'm not saying these other issues spoken to don't matter though.
the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Here is my issue with locking tuners...all the locking tuners in the world won't help if the nut is too tight and the string binds up in the slot.
Here is my issue with locking tuners...all the locking tuners in the world won't help if the nut is too tight and the string binds up in the slot.
F
Funkfingers
Guest
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
The technique for getting a traditional six-screw fulcrum vibrato to return to pitch is outlined in great detail in books such as those written by Dan Erlewine.
The essential detail is to minimise friction in several critical areas.
Also, there are ways to tie a guitar string around a machinehead post that will lock that string firmly, thereby preventing slippage.
The technique for getting a traditional six-screw fulcrum vibrato to return to pitch is outlined in great detail in books such as those written by Dan Erlewine.
The essential detail is to minimise friction in several critical areas.
Also, there are ways to tie a guitar string around a machinehead post that will lock that string firmly, thereby preventing slippage.
Chickenwings
Alnico 6/8
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Re; effort. You wanted to know how to stay in tune with a strat trem. This is as simple as it gets without the use of magic.
i have locking tuners, but thats not the main issue in terms of tuning stability.
Re; effort. You wanted to know how to stay in tune with a strat trem. This is as simple as it gets without the use of magic.
Bludave
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
What I did on two of my five Strats is I replaced the tuners with sperzels I replaced the nut with graphite and I replaced the saddles with graphite saddles. My guitars stay in tune fairly well and I haven't broken a string on either in well over three years. That said is I am not aggressively using the whammy. I tend to use it for accents like Gilmore does
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
What I did on two of my five Strats is I replaced the tuners with sperzels I replaced the nut with graphite and I replaced the saddles with graphite saddles. My guitars stay in tune fairly well and I haven't broken a string on either in well over three years. That said is I am not aggressively using the whammy. I tend to use it for accents like Gilmore does
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
tubecrunch
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
My Jeff beck strat w locking tuners and 2 point bridge and lsr roller nut didn't stay in tune. Ever. I put a Callaham bridge on my mim strat w open style vintage type tuners and it stays in tune every time.
My Jeff beck strat w locking tuners and 2 point bridge and lsr roller nut didn't stay in tune. Ever. I put a Callaham bridge on my mim strat w open style vintage type tuners and it stays in tune every time.
LReese
Sausage Gravy
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Its already been mentioned in this thread of all the points that need to be looked at. Stuff that should be addressed in a normal setup.
The bridge is only part of the equation - even a high end unit can do so much. If your nut/trees are binding or your tuners are slipping that expensive bridge (assuming its adjusted properly) isn't going to do you much good other than possibly enhance tone.
Its already been mentioned in this thread of all the points that need to be looked at. Stuff that should be addressed in a normal setup.
The bridge is only part of the equation - even a high end unit can do so much. If your nut/trees are binding or your tuners are slipping that expensive bridge (assuming its adjusted properly) isn't going to do you much good other than possibly enhance tone.