Kiesel is dropping the Iconic traditioal DC Super strat!

[dave74]

I didn’t know you could get the Aires without the beveled forearm shape....I’m not a big fan of that look especially when it’s finished in a different color etc...

It's on the builder for the bolt-on Aries, as well as the 22 fret option, and both are no up-charge at all.
I don't see either of those choices on the neck-thru Aries builder.
They do still have a standard small forearm and belly bevel, but not those huge cosmetic bevels.

 

[Cynical]

It's on the builder for the bolt-on Aries, as well as the 22 fret option, and both are no up-charge at all.
I don't see either of those choices on the neck-thru Aries builder.

I'm pretty sure an Aries neck-through without the bevel is just a DC600.

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Kiesel got tired cause Carvin/ Kiesel never seem to become mainstream among pro players. Yeah there are a number of endorsers like Craig Chaquico, Macalpine, Frank Gambale but the brand is not the first that comes to mind when thinking about buying quality guitar. Probably distribution problem? They sell direct, do they not?

Back in the day it was the only company that let me build a 'custom' guitar when the title 'custom' still carries a lot of weight, for 500 dollars, seriously: neck-thru, USA made, OFR, Sperzel locking tuners, pickups with 11 pole pieces (they said it ensured no signal drop...really?), and they even let me have my name engraved on the truss rod cover. But the body was poplar ( like I cared) and the waiting time was 3 months so I passed on it.

 

[dave74]

I'm pretty sure an Aries neck-through without the bevel is just a DC600.

Here I thought I didn't like the dc600 shape lol. It must just be that newer head that came out with the Aries that makes it work for me.
I had never seen a dc600 with the straighter (new) inline 6 (tuners on top). I've always thought the dc600 looked "off" with all their older head choices.

Thanks for pointing that out to me Cynical.

 

[Cynical]

Here I thought I didn't like the dc600 shape lol. It must just be that newer head that came out with the Aries that makes it work for me.
I had never seen a dc600 with the straighter (new) inline 6 (tuners on top). I've always thought the dc600 looked "off" with all their older head choices.

Thanks for pointing that out to me Cynical.

When you say the "newer" headstock, do you mean this one?:

For what it's worth, they've changed the shape of the DC600 a few times over the years. When they introduced 8 string and multiscale guitars, they made the upper horn on those longer and more Aries-like to combat the neck dive, and then they moved the change back to the 6 string ones.

 

[dave74]

^^^ Yes that is the headstock I like best with that body shape. I'd probably call it the Kiesel inline-6.

Ah OK that might be why I didn't like the dc600 shape before. They also used to do the edges with a smaller rounding as standard on those.
It's like they were not square but also not fully rounded, like halfway between the two.


edit; Not like the edges of the st300 either, more like a half-bevel thing.

 

[dave74]

Here's another (from the dc600 gallery) with that body/head combo.

 

[Mincer]

Those necks just look terrible to me...like a microscopic look at a virus or something.

 

[Cynical]

edit; Not like the edges of the st300 either, more like a half-bevel thing.

I believe the half-bevel thing is an option, and you can get it with or without that.

 

[Ascension]

OK I see that now. So it looks like they are indeed just narrowing the field of superstrats.

They are by dropping the most recognized model they have ever built. It's like Fender dropping the Strat or Gibson dropping the Less Paul. Yes they have the 25-5 scale new Aries and you can get the bolt on without the bevels but if I want a super nice bolt 25.5 guitar I will buy a Suhr. I want a 25 scale neck through DC and have one in the works. I'll drop the $1700 or so to get what I want this time but this will likely be my last Kiesel Carvin. After a 30 + year relationship with the company as my first choice for a guitar and several builds they will no longer be building a guitar I want to own and play.

 

[Ascension]

They finally came out with a headless with 22 frets, but like I said, I ain't paying for a new Kiesel, since there is not a single one I've tried (and I tried the best of the best NAMM Showpieces) was remarkable. And at those prices, forget it. I suppose if you just play super high gain stuff all the time, it might not matter. But Carvin used to have guitars suitable for every style. I don't think that is the case anymore.

For the most part you are correct. All the new designs except the Delos are radical and the guitars are marketed to the new metal market mostly now. Before Carvins were super high quality guitars at affordable prices for real world working players. The entire vibe of the company and clientele has changed to some thing else now and it left me and many many like me behind.
I don't want a super expensive exotic wood case queen or a radical multiscale 7 or 8 string or headless. I want a simple straight forward classy guitar with a great feeling neck flawless finish and workmanship that will come out of the case in tune sound and play great night after night after night.
A guitar like my 2017 Dc here. Simple straight forward flawless in fit and finish and super reliable. Had this one 3 year now never put a wrench on the truss rod or touched the Floyd once I set it up how I liked it. Trust me this guitar has been well played!
Last Sunday in fact
https://youtu.be/POEDAIWyANQ


For over 30 years for me a Carvin and now Kiesel has done that better than anything at any price. Now more and more that seems to not be a priority for this company to build those type affordable high quality instruments for working players and its sad.

 

[Cynical]

All the new designs except the Delos are radical

The Theos, Solo, and Crescent are "radical"? If you say so...

I don't want a super expensive exotic wood case queen or a radical multiscale 7 or 8 string or headless. I want a simple straight forward classy guitar with a great feeling neck flawless finish and workmanship that will come out of the case in tune sound and play great night after night after night.

And you can still get that. The only non-signature models that come with a figured top wood standard are the CT, CS6 (both of which are older models), Theos, and K series. The Crescent comes with a plain maple top plus solid color finish standard; everything else comes with no top wood standard and a plain solid color finish, just like your DC127.

The only thing that's being lost here is 25" scale on a super-strat that doesn't have Jason Becker's name on it (and that might be negotiable, in the past they've done shorter scale lengths on guitars that are only "supposed" to come in 25.5" -- that's why 24.75" is available on the Zeus now, because a customer requested it and was willing to pay the first-time programming fee). The DC127 was largely redundant with the seven other superstrats in their product line.

 

[Masta' C]

A couple thoughts...

1) The DC is among the most generic "Super Strat" designs ever and has looked dated for 20+ years. Without crazy quilt tops and colorful bursts, there's really nothing remarkable about them other than reliable build quality.

2) Unlike the Fender/Gibson approach, I'm personally glad to see Kiesel moving away from their vintage designs to an extent. I do NOT think they should be fully discontinued, but perhaps we'll see the "Carvin" name revived in a few years with some of these older models taking on modern updates and/or limited "tribute" editions.

 

[Ascension]

A couple thoughts...

1) The DC is among the most generic "Super Strat" designs ever and has looked dated for 20+ years. Without crazy quilt tops and colorful bursts, there's really nothing remarkable about them other than reliable build quality.

2) Unlike the Fender/Gibson approach, I'm personally glad to see Kiesel moving away from their vintage designs to an extent. I do NOT think they should be fully discontinued, but perhaps we'll see the "Carvin" name revived in a few years with some of these older models taking on modern updates and/or limited "tribute" editions.

First off you are arguing exactly the same thing I am in keeping the classic guitars branded as Carvins as a link to the legacy of the company. In fact that was was what was promised when the name change happened. Jeff Kiesel now seemingly wants to cut all the ties to the Carvin days and has systematically deleted all the older models in favor of the wild points headless designs the crazy woods goofy bevels and finishes that make some of the tops look like some alien puked on them ect.
I have always seen the Carvin DC as the absolute benchmark of the Super Strats. Bought my first one in 1991 owned a lot of others always come back to the Carvin DC prefer them over all the others like the US Jacksons old set and neck through Kramers Hamers ect. There is a reason I currently own 4 ranging from 1993 to 2017 in age. Take these on the road beat them in the equipment truck fly them cross country ect and then get back to me on them not being remarkable instruments. Nothing else on the planet will come out of the case night after night after night close to in tune and hit the stage without drama on the road like a Carvin Kiesel will and I have owned about anything you can name. That above all else is the single reason I have been so loyal to these guitars.

 

[Cynical]

Jeff Kiesel now seemingly wants to cut all the ties to the Carvin days and has systematically deleted all the older models in favor of the wild points headless designs the crazy woods goofy bevels and finishes that make some of the tops look like some alien puked on them ect.

If you're going to paint every model introduced by Jeff with this brush, please explain how it applies to the SCB, Aries (bolt-on or neckthrough), Delos, Theos, Solo, or Crescent.

 

[dave74]

I can totally see why they are sacrificing select older models in order to offer some newer models. It's just a matter of them selecting correctly.

The dc line is a good choice for them to streamline IMO. They have continued to alter and refine the dc600 with more modern features like direct-mount pickups, 25.5" scale, elongated upper-horn and refined body-edges (although the initial dc600 picture on their "guitars" page is not current, it shows the older style. ( very bad marketing tbh) The body dimensions given do not match the Aries either, so they also might be the older specs, but it's weird because the dc600 dimensions listed are larger in every regard, but the new style and the Aries models look larger to my eyes, not vise-versa as the specs are. (???) They should remove most of the gallery images because they aren't current. About a dozen are current though, easy to see the difference if you look where the upper-horn's strap button lines-up to the 12th fret on newer cut.

If you opt for a bevel on a new dc600 it is very subtle and nothing like the Aries bevel. It's also a perfect cosmetic bevel for a solid color or non-topped natural finish.

 

[NecroJoe]

...the most recognizable guitar Carvin Kiesel has ever built

Is it, though?

with an almost 40 year production run

If you're going that high, then you are also counting the years when it was a 24.75" set-neck, a body shape that was re-designed after that, and a smaller forearm bevel than it's had since ~2013/2014. You're counting years when the available electronics (not just the pickups) were different. You're including bridges that haven't been available for years. One could argue that your 2017 DC127 is further away from the original DC's than it is from a 2021 DC600.

I think it is a massively huge blunder for them

Hear me out...

Let's say you have an Italian restaurant near you. Let's say the restaurant has been around for 75 years, and over the last year added arancini, 2 new lasagnas, an asparagus risotto, revamped their tiramisu recipe to allow them to make more at a time to keep the price low and not run out, and added a arabiata sauce and a new kale pesto sauce. Every year they add half a dozen new menu entrees, and at the end of every year they look at the items that nobody buys anymore. When they look at the numbers, they see it's basically just 4 guys that have been ordering the Turkey Scaloppini with Marsala Sauce. Maybe they've been ordering it since it was put on the menu 35 years ago when it was a popular item for 25 years, and maybe one of them has even ordered it as recently as a month ago.

The new head chef's been running the restaurant for 5 years, and the restaurant was re-named so that it no longer represented the old owners who wanted to close it 20 years ago. The new chef has a more modern palette, and the restaurant is more popular than ever. After reviewing the numbers, they decide they just don't want to offer this Turkey Scallopini anymore. Doing so opens up space on the menu for something that sells better. They may even still have all of the ingredients on-hand and are all used in other dishes...but in the end, they stop offering the Turkey Scaloppini.

With that context...explain how is that decision a "massively huge blunder"? It is going to make those 4 guys disappointed? Sure. No company could ever get rid of anything if that's the barrier. Is the fact that the menu will no longer have Turkey Scaloppini going to turn away people who were going to get the tortellini or the new risotto anyway?

but seeming Jeff Kiesel wants to ax everything from the old Carvin days for his new designs.

Yes, and? They want to make what they like, and/or what will sell. Carvin's/Kiesel's been trying to separate themselves from the "established" companies for decades. To me, a part of that has been releasing new models with new features (the HF2, the CT, etc) and that also included discontinuing models when they didn't sell (the BC130, LS175, V440, the SH60...heck, the Ultra V and V220 have both already been discontinued once before and brought back...the X220, too, and then it was discontinued again.

Been playing these guitars since the early 1990's prefer them to anything else by anybody at any price point and for many years you never see me out on stage without at least one Carvin or Kiesel with me. My 2017 Kiesel DC is the closest to absolute perfection in fit finish fretwork and workmanship in a guitar as I have ever seen absolutely flawless plus plays like butter is super stable and sounds amazing.

That's awesome. A follow-up question...by discontinuing the model, that doesn't take any of that away, right?

That’s too bad...a DC6 is my “gas” guitar.
Unfortunately, right now I can’t afford one but I was hoping to make a purchase within the next few years.
Looks like I’ll have to go used.

The DC6 has been discontinued for years. This was a DC6:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4a/95...099.jpg​

Is the Jason Becker model a DC?

If by DC you just mean "double cut", then yes it is, but it's not a part of the DC127 line. It USED to be. In the 80s and maybe the early 90s, that body shape was the "ST" body shape option for the DC line, and I think was the standard on the DC145 for a while, but I might have that wrong. Then in the 2000s, they released the JB200C and the ST300. Both were based on that body and almost identical to it. Later, they discontinued the ST300, but kept the JB200C.

They however just took away many of the options in the builder but suspect you can get most things if you call and with some cost.

True. They seem to give the signature artists control over what is and isn't available on their models, at least while retaining the 10-day trial. Kiesel will still build you a green "bluey", but it wouldn't have the 10-day. The new Dustin Davidson signature bass, he only wants the walnut body and poplar top on his signature model, so no other options are on the builder, but I believe you are able to get more if you call. Andy James has said "NO PINK!" so I'm pretty sure you can't get his signature model in pink. The new FG2 is only available in that special yellow.

 

[NecroJoe]

dc600 has been 25.5" for over a decade now, but all the others in that line were 25" like the st300/JB models.

That's not correct. To start, the model hasn't even been around that long.
- The DC600 was launched as 25" in 2012.
- 25.5" was added as a no-cost option in 2016.
- The DC600 and DC700 were re-designed in 2018 to their newer more modern outline (they were both previously identical to the DC127 and DC727), edge detail, and 25.5" scale length.

I suppose if you just play super high gain stuff all the time, it might not matter. But Carvin used to have guitars suitable for every style. I don't think that is the case anymore.

This is such a strange argument to me. Are they catering to a new market that they ignored for years and years? Yes. Are they going after it in a big way? You bet. But also, in-stock right now:

https://www.kieselguitars.com/images...all/145867.jpg
https://www.kieselguitars.com/images...mall/71133.jpg
https://www.kieselguitars.com/images...all/145678.jpg
https://www.kieselguitars.com/images...all/143507.jpg
https://www.kieselguitars.com/images...all/144300.jpg
https://www.kieselguitars.com/images...all/115218.jpg

^^^ Yes that is the headstock I like best with that body shape. I'd probably call it the Kiesel inline-6.

Ah OK that might be why I didn't like the dc600 shape before. They also used to do the edges with a smaller rounding as standard on those.
It's like they were not square but also not fully rounded, like halfway between the two.


edit; Not like the edges of the st300 either, more like a half-bevel thing.

The DC600 has always had this squared-off edge profile as the standard since it launched. The "half-bevel", like what is standard on the Vader's body, were always optional...just popular, so you see them on a lot of builds.

They are by dropping the most recognized model they have ever built.

Is it, though? I think most would probably say the V220. Or maybe the AE185 which they have a bronze statue of in front of the factory.

It's like Fender dropping the Strat or Gibson dropping the Less Paul.

This may be the most off-the-mark thing you've said. The difference is: people still buy those by the boat-load. One could say that it would be more comparable to Kiesel discontinuing their Aries or maybe Vader.

 

[NecroJoe]

Before Carvins were super high quality guitars at affordable prices for real world working players. The entire vibe of the company and clientele has changed to some thing else now and it left me and many many like me behind.

23 years ago, 1988, the first year the DC was available, with 2 humbuckers and a Floyd Rose, would have cost you $619. Adjusted for inflation, you're at $1361. Your cheapest case option was $60 or $132 in today's money. making the adjusted cost $1493. You had your choice of 3 colors (black, red, white), or clear gloss for this price.

Today, the DC600 is $1519. The cheapest case option is $80, making it $1589 So after 22 years, the new DC600 costs you about 6% more. For that 6%/$96 difference, you are getting included stainless steel frets. Oh, and also you get $100 in free options. Want a tung oil neck? That could be included in those free options. It would have cost you $40 in 1988 ($88 adjusted, making the modern Kiesel only $8 more expensive than the OG neck-through DC.

So all of this talk about how "kiesel isn't for the workin' man" or "they are all expensive flash now compared to when *I* used to buy them" are a bit disingenuous. Not to mention the "Ugh, their prices are so high because of all of the Commie-fornia taxes!!" With aaaall of that factored in, the difference for a REAL "players" guitar is $8.

And for that extra $8, you also get:
-Left-handed at no charge (in 1988 it was $50, $110 adjusted)
-An additional no-charge clearcoat option (their thin "raw tone satin")
-17 free paint colors, including such "modern metal head" finishes like "vintage yellow", "classic white", "surf green", "British Racing green", etc, and also still available: clear gloss.
- in 1988, Translucent blue was $40 (adjusted to $88 in today's money). Know how much they cost today? $40.
- In 1988, Translucent blue over flamed maple was $200. That's $439.95 in today's money. Know how much that would cost today? $250.
- In 1989, the "no inlay" option cost $20. That's $43.99 adjusted to today. That's available for no cost today. Not only that, but you also have 3 different dot patters available at no charge.
- 3 different truss rod cover colors at no charge
- In 1989, Dunlop strap locks were a $10 ($20.99 adjusted) option. Today they are $20.
- In 1988, gold hardware was $40, $87.99 adjusted. Today? $80.
- In 1988, block MOP inlays were $50, $110 adjusted. Today? $70.

 

[NecroJoe]

I don't want a super expensive exotic wood case queen or a radical multiscale 7 or 8 string or headless.

Soooo....then don't get one. But just know that those expensive upgrades are where they make much higher profit margins, and are likely subsidizing the base prices of their whole line. Ever notice how when they have a sale, there's never a reduction on a base price, but instead they throw in (or discount) options? There's never a "$999 Delos special, with no included upgrades!" It's because they'd lose their ass if everyone just ordered base models. If they did, they'd have to charge more for them to stay afloat. So I guess in a way, you should be thanking everyone who's ordering fancy upgraded 3-color fades, colored fingerboards and transparent color-shift paint jobs on glow-in-the-dark sparkle-infused, resin-filled burled tops (a real combo of options they have built multiples of, no I'm not kidding).

I want a simple straight forward classy guitar with a great feeling neck flawless finish and workmanship that will come out of the case in tune sound and play great night after night after night.
A guitar like my 2017 Dc here. Simple straight forward flawless in fit and finish and super reliable. Had this one 3 year now never put a wrench on the truss rod or touched the Floyd once I set it up how I liked it.

Good thing every aspect of that description is available on many models. You're claiming the discontinuation of one model, the DC127, is the downfall of the company, while praising your 2017 build are virtually flawless build quality and feel. 2021 builds should have comparable quality and fell.

In conclusion: you're sad about three things:
1. no more rounded body sides
2. no more 25" scale on a model you like
3. no more body shape that's been around in this version for about 7 years, and re-designed several times before that over the course of it's life, even if you're only starting the clock in 1988 with the 25" neck-through version, and ignoring the 24.75" set-necks before it.

And those are valid concerns. And if you really want them, actually ask them. I'm not saying you'll get a yes, but the only way they will know if people want it, is for people to ask. It's how we have the SCB7, scalloped fretboards, the bevel-delete option on the Aries, 24.75" scale options on a couple of models now (Hyperdrive, Leia, Zeus), etc etc etc.

But, IMO, almost every single one of your other complains are not honest, or at least are disingenuous without the context.




Sorry about the multiple posts...I read the whole thread and had this all written out, then kept getting errors until I broke it down.