Les Paul with headstock repair value?

[ehdwuld]

I think the OP was looking for a number value as he would be taking it in trade for something he owns and values

I am not sure what the average value of the guitar without the repair.
But like they said whatever the market is for that year and model and condition minus 10% should be the ballpark

 

[Mincer]

Not being a luthier, I always wondered if the snapping off of a headstock turns up more on the tiltback Gibson design than any other. If it does, I wonder why that design hadn't been changes or reinforced (not just adding more wood) since this started happening. As someone who doesn't repair guitars, I only hear about Gibson's heads snapping off. Is it a design flaw? Or are people just less careful with a more substantial guitar?

 

[ICTGoober]

Please note the Peavey bass pix.... NOT a tiltback design. I've fixed Music Mans with broken pegheads, Gibsons of all stripes, Fenders, PRS, Martins.... They all break, and I don't believe that one brand is more prone to breakage over another because they all get broken in different ways. I fixed a Les Paul that was in the case on the edge, and it fell over about 8 inches - broke the peghead. That was negligible pressure. Yet I've seen stuff tossed in the air, and come down on the neck and barely be out of tune. There is no hard and fast rule on breakage or survival.

 

[man-in-moon]

Thanks guys I have seen a lot of headstock breaks over the years and had 2 myself. I’m going to check the guitar out tomorrow and see what I think of it otherwise. I did some looking on reverb and 90’s les Paul’s wirh more wear but minus the headstock repair seem to be going for $2400 and up.
I know they say 90’s were the good years for Gibson but I didn’t expect to see prices like that. Are the higher prices because of the better quality and are they considered vintage now?

 

[AlexR]

As well as the headstock angle, the carved top and the necessary neck angle is a contributing factor....almost moreso as even with no headstock tilt it would still land first in a fall. The glued neck also means that you cannot easily replace a neck as the Fender ethos allowed for.
But the biggest issue is neglect or abuse.

Gibsons are indeed more rooted in a 'gentler past' when it comes to design. It represents an era when musicians inhabited more refined arenas, but also where they had more respect for their instruments.
Even in the 70's, the typical gig was more likely to be in the worst of the dingy watering holes, and the growing consumer society allowed for mass purchase of what was once a luxury item. It has long been a perfect storm for damage.

 

[AlexR]

I know they say 90’s were the good years for Gibson but I didn’t expect to see prices like that. Are the higher prices because of the better quality and are they considered vintage now?

That 90's good wood era is the worst kind of nonsense.
There is no wood selection criteria that makes for a better sounding guitar. They select for cosmetic things like grain straightness and blemishes like knots or colour....but also there might be a board weight upper cutoff. But you can get awesome sounding guitars both heavy and light.....so its not like the heavier it is the worse it sounds. And those 90's ones can be some right boat anchors just like the 70's and 80's - and thats even counting the weight relief they all had.
Vintage is also a meaningless word to apply. If you are into guitars, and Fender and Gibson in particular, vintage has already been appropriated as a fixed meaning for the masses - its a cutoff of the 1965/66 CBS era for Fender, and the Dec 1969 Norlin takeover of Gibson.

 

[Adieu]

90s totally had better wood

70s-80s used boat anchor crap and changed recipes, and current stuff uses REALLY low end wood on anything that isn't astronomically expensive

 

[ICTGoober]

You better define "low end wood" because that could mean almost anything.

 

[NegativeEase]

Definition of luthier: A skilled craftsman who makes or repairs stringed musical instruments. A tech might do setups or work on electronics.

Hell, I guess I'm a Luthier -who knew -I've fixed Gibby Headstocks for 30 years -I've done some that are almost invisible -especially a Nighthawk I repaired.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

When it comes to Les Paul headstock breaks some factors are obvious, like location/severity of the break, and quality/visibility of the repair.

One thing that isn't as readily apparent is that a neck repair often affects the feel and even the tone.

An upside is that often the guitars sound brighter afterward. I know of at least a couple of players who liked the tone better after a neck repair, with nothing else on their guitars having been altered. Often a repaired headstock can be stronger than it was originally too.

A downside is, that same extra rigidity can make a guitar feel stiffer and less lively; that's quite important to me personally. A great quality headstock repair made one of my LPs require significantly higher volume levels before it came alive. That one never quite felt the same and I eventually sold it.

I bought one LP Standard with a previous headstock repair that's nearly invisible. Won't show up in a photo I and can only find it by looking at just the right angle in full sunlight. (It's only easy to see if you take off the truss rod cover.) This guitar plays nicely and feels just fine but it is quite bright. The bridge position Burstbucker 2 was so harsh I had to change it out. PRS 59/09 gave it better body but was a little too aggressive. Finally tried a Rewind Creme Brulee; that sweetened it up beautifully.

 

[ICTGoober]

Paul Dean of Loverboy was the first guy I ever heard mention that his guitars sounded better after the neck was broken and repaired. So when Hondo (yes, Hondo) put out a Paul Dean Signature model, the neck was made in 3 pieces and glued together again with small voids routed under the fingerboard to replicate losing little pieces of wood during the repair.

 

[NegativeEase]

A repaired guitar (especially a broken headstock repair) is often BETTER than original. So unless we are talking a collectible, I see no reason for ding the price on a used guitar. If you want to be a jerk - 10% discount, but not 50. That's just stupid.

Interesting, I figured the price was at least 30-40% lowered -but I've never sold one.

As an actual pro, in the classic Gibby breakpoint -do you dowel the headstock or just glue? I've done both -depending on the the thickness of the neck. I've never seen one rebreak.

 

[nexion218]

Not being a luthier, I always wondered if the snapping off of a headstock turns up more on the tiltback Gibson design than any other. If it does, I wonder why that design hadn't been changes or reinforced (not just adding more wood) since this started happening. As someone who doesn't repair guitars, I only hear about Gibson's heads snapping off. Is it a design flaw? Or are people just less careful with a more substantial guitar?

Because "heritage" and "traditions", that's why... On a serious note, I'd say it's a design thing. If I recall well, the headstock is tilted 17 degrees, they insist on making the neck and headstock from one piece (so no scarf joint like for example Jacksons) and refuse to carve a volute (like for example ESP). Together with the truss rod's channel routed out, only some minimal wood is left under the nut area of the guitar,. Tasked with handling the tension of the strings, the thin layer of wood gives in easier. I believe Epiphones have a 14 degree angle and that alone makes a big difference.

 

[Mincer]

So a more severe angle made out of 1 piece of wood is more fragile from a design standpoint?

 

[ICTGoober]

As an actual pro, in the classic Gibby breakpoint - do you dowel the headstock or just glue? I've done both -depending on the the thickness of the neck

The repair depends on severity of the break. I've never used dowels, but I used to install splines in the really bad ones. However, thanks to discussions with other pros on the Official Luthiers Forum I've given them up. They are a lot of work, adding time and expense to the repair - while adding very little provable strength to the repair. I had planned to use splines on that Peavey bass, but thought I would try it without and see. If it broke again, I could always reglue and insert splines. I didn't have to, it held beautifully. Made my turnaround time very short, as the longest part of the repair was touching up the finish. I did veneer the face of the peghead to cover the break and make it look nice. The client liked it and didn't mind that the Peavey decal was gone.

Unless the client wants the repair hidden, I also stopped using color during the touch-up so the actual repair could be seen. I was influenced by the thoughts of antique auto restorers who realized a car is only original once (so stop making them look better than new), and kustom car builders who stopped painting sheet metal work to show off their skills. In my case - the repair is not hidden, so there is no question. You can see what I did, and judge for yourself.

Here's a 335 I did a couple years ago. The break was bad, and the finish touchup to the repair was very noticeable - but the client was super happy.

https://imgur.com/AotqQMZ
https://imgur.com/y26PO9V

 

[nexion218]

So a more severe angle made out of 1 piece of wood is more fragile from a design standpoint?

Yes, that is my understanding. It makes the part bearing the most tension the thinnest piece of wood.

 

[ICTGoober]

The shorter the piece of material, the stiffer. This is why a bolt-on neck is so strong, and peghead affixed using a scarf joint is so strong.

 

[Mincer]

It seems like a re-design is warranted. But I am guessing that doesn't happen, because 'tradition'.

 

[NegativeEase]

Unless the client wants the repair hidden, I also stopped using color during the touch-up so the actual repair could be seen. I was influenced by the thoughts of antique auto restorers who realized a car is only original once (so stop making them look better than new), and kustom car builders who stopped painting sheet metal work to show off their skills. In my case - the repair is not hidden, so there is no question. You can see what I did, and judge for yourself.

Here's a 335 I did a couple years ago. The break was bad, and the finish touchup to the repair was very noticeable - but the client was super happy.

Thanks, nice repair! I've never considered not trying to match and hide it before -those are good thoughts.

I think I've done about 4 or 5 over the years -mostly for broke friends.

 

[ICTGoober]

It seems like a re-design is warranted. But I am guessing that doesn't happen, because 'tradition'.

I'd be interested to hear what you have in mind.
Basically - it's a stick with strings.