Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel...

[EdBo]

Hi there,

Am new. Just joined today. Great site you have here!

Perhaps, someone can please help me out?

I just finished configurating my VGS Gold Top Les Paul, with the Seymoue Duncan schematic without the 2 Triple Shots. Logically, it should work WITHOUT...the 2 Triple Shots and which it does! Thank you, Seymour Duncan!

All works well, except....when I put the guitar in Parallel, only the Rhythm/Neck pickup works and the Treble/Bridge pickup does not do anything! When I put the 3 toggle to Treble no sound is heard.

Why, it this?

Am I missing something?

Phase in and out, works fine, I want to add. Beautiful sound! And, in its normal state pickup configuration it works as it should without any problems.

So, the only problem is WHY is the Treble not working when toggled in its position for Parallel sound? It should go Parallel as the Rhythm pickup.

Below you see the schematic to give you an idea.

Can anyone please be of some help, here?

Thank you, in advance.

Edward

 

[AlexR]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

The series parallel is for the middle position if you didn't know. So when the pickup selector switch is in the middle you have the normal middle position (which is parallel) and then series, which will be louder. If you then move the switch to bridge everything should be normal.

All I can think of is that the switch for series parallel has a wrong connection somewhere

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

There are two obvious answers.

1)...you have it wired wrong.

2)...if you're not using Triple Shots then you can't use the TS wiring diagram.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi AlexR,

Thank you, for your response.

I am not using a Pushpull pot, I should mention. I am using Pushbutton, similar to that of those on a Mixing Console. It is installed as is on Jimmy Page's Les Paul nr. 2; which are hidden underneath the pickguard. So, when I push the Parallel button in and the toggle selector in Rhythm, I do...notice sound difference which is the Parallel sound. So, that is ok. When I put the toggel selector in the middel, I also hear sound, which is of course, similar to the Rhythm position. But, when I put the toggle in Treble, than there is no sound at all. It just Mutes. This is the only problem I have.

It could be that I have to unhook a wire or something, or connect an 'additional' wire somewhere; I had similar situation when I was working on my Les Paul Black Beauty 3. It now has, 1 tone pot and each pickup has its own Volume pot. So, I think I may have to scout in that area/direction?

I will chech the connectios, again, yes...

Thank you, for your input.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi GuitarDoc,

Thank you, for your response.

Yes, there could be a connection that has to be made or visa versa.

Not using the diagram, could be the case, but all works well as it should except, when in the Treble mode, when the toggle positioned, it just mutes the sound. So, my thought is that when you put it in the Parallel mode, the pushbutton, it should make the toggle selector put all three positioning in the Parallel without muting the Treble. But, I will check the connections, again, as I mentioned to AlexR. Perhaps, the Treble needs an additional connection or visa versa? Just as was the case with my Black Beauty 3.

Always something to discover....

Thank you, for your input.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

There is only 1 parallel position.....which is the middle position.....and this is a stock wiring position in a les paul style 3-way switch. What this wiring will give you is the two pickup in series as an option when you have both of them selected. You will have the normal bridge and neck positions when you have the switch in those positions irrespective of where the series parallel switch is.

My bet is a wrong connection on the switch.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi AlexR,

So, it should work in the same principle as when I do the Phase in/out selection?

Phase in/out, also works ONLY from the 3 toggle selector - in the middle position - to achieve this.

Thus, to achieven the Parallel Effect I have to do the same, in which it only works when the toggel switch is in the middle; putting the toggle to Rhythm or Treble position, would just 'undo' the Parallel Effect, as I understoond? Just like as in Phase mode; they would have their default sound.

So, I mistakenly understood, that the 3 toggle switch, it be in the Rhythm, Middle or Treble positioning would 'sperately' be affected; being put in Parallel mode?

Thus, in short: the Parallel Effect works in the same way as the Phase in/out. BOTH, dependent by putting the toggle switch in the Middle. So, the Parallel Effect does NOT affect the Ryhthm and Treble, as I thought, each seperately?

If the above mentioned is what you mean, Alex, than it would make sense. I am just Dependent on the Middle positioning of the toggle switch. Just like when in Phase mode. That is quite clear, yes.

Will work on that.

Thank you, again, Alex.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Yes....parallel is only ever working when you have more than one pickup selected, it is both pickups working separately but then 1 tone layered across the other - its like 1 divided by 1. Series is a sum.....1 plus 1, hence the sound will be louder.

But if you wired this up to get a parallel mode.....well, the stock 3-way switch will give you parallel mode normally. The difference here is series mode which is the unusual tone.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi Alex,

Yes, I get the picture, thank you.

It is standard configured, in Series.

Been working on the wiring the last couple of days, even today, but have still not resovled the problem. Getting frustrated. It is not as simple as I thought it would be. I have tried everything, so to speak; changed the input wiring, the ground, checked out the 3 toggle wiring, but, in the end: the problem still stands, alas. So, I put all the wiring back to its original state, WITH....the same problem.

I am totally out of ideas.

What wisdom can you give further to resovled it, Alex? Or, anyone else...out there?

Did not think it would be that complicated.

According to similar diagrams, it should work. Comparing them...alas.

I even checked out the Parallel Pushbutton, and I thought I almost had it, but, it went back to the normal standard wiring hookup; so, that was no use.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

How do you get standard configuration in series for the middle position?? I'm curious, because almost every switch on the planet is parallel when selecting both pickups.

Ok, wiring - So even without the parallel/phase switches you still don't get the bridge pickup you say. This tells me there is an issue centering around the bridge pot - switch. You need to get in there with a multimeter set to ohms....over 20K. Test that the pickup has continuity to the wire coming into the switch. If it doesn't then the pot/wire is at fault. If it does then check the output wire/lug with the switch set to bridge. If you have issues here then you'll need to check the switch for physical continuity.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi Alex,

I was referring to, in standard configuration Series, that both pickups are hooked-up in Series. Which, is default on the guitars. Standard configuration is not Parallel, as far as I know; unless, there has been a change made? Some people have said, that the pickups are all Parallel hooked-up, which does not seem to be the case, as far as I know. So, people tend to confuse eachother, here. As I was at one time.

No, it DOES work, as I mentioned previously: standard default configuration/sound/hook-up is ok. Works as it should. Only, when I push the Parallel Pushbutton in (to go into Parallel sound/
mode) it makes the Bridge pickup mute; toggle switch in the middle and in Rhythm/Neck position is also ok; I hear sound difference here; it does go Parallel. So, if I understood you well, I am supposed to put the 3 toggel in the MIDDLE position to achieve the Parallel sound, which is not the case as you can see here, as I mentioned.

I think that I have to correct the (Parallel) Pushbutton configuration wiring. Personally, I think, the fault is there, somewhere? Just as you menmtioned before and which was my idea also. I did everything as viewed in the diagram. Will just try again.....

Thank you, again, Alex.

Appreciate you help.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

If you have the typical strat 5-position switch, or a Les Paul 3 position switch, the positions with multiple pickups selected will always be parallel - this is as it has been since the 50's. This is the LP switch type I'm talking about:


So - unless your switch is odd, then we are looking at the wiring of the series part

Can you post some pictures of the control cavity - some closeups and some with the entire thing. Also, have you tried pushing the phase switch and seeing if it does anything.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi Alex,

I have the 3 toggle as shown in your image. So, I take it, theres no need for me to take any shots of the one I have in the guitar? It is excellent kwality....I must say.

So, what you are saying, is that the Les Paul is hooked-up in Parallel, as said since the 50's. That was my idea, also, for a long time. Other people have been saying it is in Series; so, you can see it can become very confusing. I play guitar since I was 11-12 years old, and that is about 48 years. So, even at my age, there is still confusion going here-and-there, concerning what it is. So, I will stick to your logic and as I though, also.

Everything works correct when it gets down to the standard configuration. Even, the Phase Pushbutton works well, as it should; also...when I pushdown the Parallel button, the sound is also Out-of-Phase. So, that works well; and is much louder.

I rechecked the wiring now well over 10 x...or more. I did precisely, what is shown on the diagram. I am sure, it has nothing to do with the Triple Shots(?). Logically, it should just work WITHOUT them, no?

 

[AlexR]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

The pickups themselves are wired in series, that is what cancels the hum. But once selected together yes, the two pickups are in parallel. This is why the middle position isn't any louder than any one pickup by itself. Series in the middle will be louder.

Something is bugging me about this diagram.......I've never used it myself, so I can't be positive, but I think there's a fault. There seems to be something missing between the phase switch and the series parallel, or in the wrong spot. Artie Too is a wiring guru here. Try PM-ing him to see what needs to be done.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

The STANDARD when two pickups are being combined together is PARALLEL, in Les Pauls, Stratos, Teles and whatever axe, with few exceptions.
SERIES is an usual mod to get more stronger output from middle positions (when both pickups are involved).
BOTH concepts need, at least, TWO coils or TWO pickups. Otherwise it makes no sense.
OUT-OF-PHASE needs TWO coils (inside a humbucker) or TWO pickups, as well. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

Now, going to that serializer switch and, it's effects.
This way to put two pickups in series will work just for middle and neck positions (neck in series with bridge) but, will fail (no sound) in bridge position.
Let's say this is a KNOWN ISSUE.
The fact is that both pickups are pipelined together and, the common output for both is neck's hot and, since neck hot's isn't switched on in that toggle, no signal is linked to jack's hot.

I use other way to put a couple of pickups in series and, this way puts in series both pickups for ALL toggle positions so, it doesn't matter if you select rythm, middle or treble, you will get both pickups in series in each one.

The second picture in SERIALIZER section corresponds to the wiring method I am mentioning here.
The first picture in SERIALIZER section corresponds to the "standard" wiring method, the one you are using (but, the switch is flipped 180º).

http://hermeticoguitar.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/wiring-diy-part-09.html

note: wire colors are SD's ones.

HOT1 corresponds to neck pickup
HOT2 corresponds to bridge pickup

route those hots to the corresponding lug of the 3-way toggle switch.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi Alex,

Yes, what you mentioned would be the case that confuses some people. The difference between the pickups being WIRED in Series and selecting them together being in Parallel. Good for you to mention this. Something to remember.

Yes, I also think that there is something missing. Will check out ArtieToo.

Hermetico, gave a good answer WHY, my Bridge sound is Muted. He mentions the same 'anomaly'. So, there is this '(un)known issue'. Checked out his page, and there is indeed some possibilities. Some diagrams are familiar, though, but will check it out futher.

Again, Thank You, for you kind help, Alex. Very much appreciated. You been a great help.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi Hermetico,

Thank you, for your input.

WHY, my Bridge Mutes, is very clear now, thanks to your discription. I would agree with Alex when he mentioned that there is a fault in the diagram. I may perhaps just leave that 'fault' there and leave it as it is, untill I find a sollution. Now, that you mentioned that it is known.

Your link is very interesting. I see some familiar diagrams. Which are known to me. But, still putting them into Phase, with the other Pushbutton, will have to be sorted out. Which is not my speciality, alas. Than, there has to be an additional diagram for the both Pushbuttons with your schematic and that of the Phase schematic, to make them BOTH work. Than, I can work from that. Which would be no problem.

Will check out your advice...

Thank you, for you help, Hermetico. Very much appreaicated.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

you're welcome.

In fact this issue you are reporting is the major flaw I see in Jimmy Page's wiring, which haves a bunch of combinations that lead you to blackouts (no sound).
This, and a bad control mapping (not easy to guess what you will get when switching pull/pushes) made me to design my own take (named Hermetico's LP Exchanger 2), that even provides 1 more position, no blackouts and easy to map controls.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Hi Hermetico,

Yes, I just checked out your LP Exchanger 2: MAN....some combinations there!

FANTASTIC! Sounds GREAT!

You did quite some studying, I must say. But, worth the investigation. And, yes, the JP diagram(s), should indeed be updated. Would be kinda odd....if Jimmy would play on a guitar with such flaws, no? I was wondering if those flaws were put in Consciously? Like the saying goes: A teacher never tells all his secrets. He always has something up-his-sleeve...in case.

Or, someone who could get his hands on an authantic JP LP, could confirm it, if these flaws are present in that guitar? Than we know for sure. So, the Custom Shop ones are flawless, and/but, the diagrams fail; consciously or unconsciously?

I take my hat of for you! Excellently done.

I was planning to put Pushpulls in another LP guitar; I have the pots and all, but had not got to it. So, if I do get that far, I would indeed use your diagram and not the JP ones out there. Seeing, that they are not concluded.

Thank you, for the revelation....

Going to put the guitar back together this morning. Will post some images in its processing after I finish. Everything works great except the Treble flaw, but, that does not matter at this time. First time I did this one. It went ok...except for that '(un)natural' flaw. NOT my fault...:no:

I wanted to do this one a couple of dacades ago or more, when I first heard of it, never got to it or could not find the Pushbuttons. Found them on eBay in China(; 3 months ago). 10 Pushbuttons for just $4.99! Some individuals were selling them on eBay/Amazone for $6-7 for just ONE! Without the cap/hood to go with it. And, I also came
across with cap/hood for the same price.

I put one on my Gibson LP De Luxe '74 (made to Standard). It has Dimarzios (Non Passive) 2 conductor wires, so(; which I installed begin 80's), I could only make it work Out-of-Phase. So, that one went well. No problems.

 

[EdBo]

Re: Les Paul with Phase switch and Series/Parallel switch: Treble problem in Parallel

Here are some images I wanted to share with you all, of Jimmy Page's Pushbutton system. When I first heard of it some 2-3 decades ago, I did not hear of the Push-Pull pots; which came later on, I think? There was no mention of them so, I take it that they came in much later? Unless, I missed something, back then?

The Gibson Custom Shop Les Pauls of this model, do have the Push-Pull pots included, which came out some years back, for a more variety of sounds.

Am not sure if Jimmy's Les Paul Pushbutton system was fabricated the same way I fabricated it, but, it worked thanks to my imagination and some shots of Jimmy's baby. But, I think it is quite similar.


Bridge cavity displaying, Neck wires and split coat. I split the
coat that holds the wires down the middle and collect the ones I need for the Pushbuttons.


Viewing the two Pushbuttons and an aluminum L plate. With the needed hole, which has the diameter of that of/in the Pickguard.


Soldering the needed ends of the wire to the Pushbuttons; the rest of the wires go back into the coat and is taped.


Wires from the neck pickup, put in a coat and which is finished. Series/Parallel button.


Bridge pickup is finished and taped into a coat. The rest of the wires also in a coat, and taped, just goes back down to the pot cavity. And, later to be soldered.


Last solder checkup. I used a piece thin cardboard during soldering above the guitar. You can slide it in-and-out.


Pushbuttons are all finished! Now, to be glued to the aluminum L plate.


The both Pushbuttons being glued to the L plate with Super Glue! Put them between a couple of clothing drying clips.


Glue has dried and the Pushbuttons can be mounted.


One last check. Looks great!