Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

[Gearjoneser]

This is a nagging headache that anyone who installs pickups needs to deal with at one point. I'm not even a newbie at installing pickups, but this problem still haunts me from time to time, especially since I mix'n'match brands quite often. I have a good understanding of some of it, but I want to hear from some members that have the solution to everything! Even though I know the answers to some of these questions, I'm writing these scenarios anyway, for the benefit of everyone.

When two pickups are on at the same time and there's a thin nasally honk, yet the hum is cancelled it is WHAT? Polarity problem or wind direction issue?
Solution?

When two pickups sound fine in the middle position, but there still IS hum, it is WHAT? Polarity problem or wind direction issue? Solution?

Let's say you have 3 single coils in a strat, and you encounter either of those two problems in the 2 or 4 position, what is the solution? I've heard that if that problem happens in the bridge position, you have to reverse the bridge hot and ground, then reverse the neck and middle pickup, but wire them normally. Is this correct?

Now, let's say you install a Duncan humbucker with 2 singles. Of course, your humbucker will have both coils on, mixed with your middle. What do you need to do with the red and white wires to get the humbucker to split, when you're on the #2 position? Again, if there's the nasally honk or NON humcancelling, do you use the solution I mentioned.......reversing the leads, and reversing the neck and middle (wired normally)?

 

[rspst14]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

When two pickups are on at the same time and there's a thin nasally honk, yet the hum is cancelled it is WHAT? Polarity problem or wind direction issue?
Solution?

out of phase...it's solved by flipping a magnet or reversing the hot and ground wire

When two pickups sound fine in the middle position, but there still IS hum, it is WHAT? Polarity problem or wind direction issue? Solution?

This is a polarity problem...I think it's more common with single coils. In a Strat, you'd need to use a RW/RP middle pickup. I'm not sure how to fix it on a humbucker guitar, or if this even happens with humbuckers. I'm still a bit confused on this one.

Let's say you have 3 single coils in a strat, and you encounter either of those two problems in the 2 or 4 position, what is the solution? I've heard that if that problem happens in the bridge position, you have to reverse the bridge hot and ground, then reverse the neck and middle pickup, but wire them normally. Is this correct?

This is why Strat pickups are available RW/RP. In order to cancel hum in the 2 and 4 positions, you need either the middle pickup or both the neck and bridge pickups to be RW/RP.

Now, let's say you install a Duncan humbucker with 2 singles. Of course, your humbucker will have both coils on, mixed with your middle. What do you need to do with the red and white wires to get the humbucker to split, when you're on the #2 position? Again, if there's the nasally honk or NON humcancelling, do you use the solution I mentioned.......reversing the leads, and reversing the neck and middle (wired normally)?

I'll leave the wiring question to Artie. If the two singles are humming when used together, one of them must be changed to a RW/RP version. I could be wrong, but I think that's the only way to solve that problem. If they have a thin sound but still cancel hum, you need to reverse the leads on one of the pickups. In order to get the split humbucker to cancel hum when combined with a single, you need to make sure you split to the correct coil.

Anyone else feel free to jump in if I've made any incorrect statements, but this is how I understand it. One of the big hurdles when it comes to understanding this is the tendency to confuse phase and polarity.

Ryan

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

OK, I've been working on a strat all evening. I was right about the strat situation.
I got this explanation from Lew, and it's correct. If you want to know if two pickups will sound good together, you simply hold the pickup up to the other one, and if the magnets attract, they'll work together fine. If they repel, they won't.

Let's use the Antiquity I's and II's for example, since they don't jive together.

If you've got Antiquity II Surfers, and want to add an Antiquity Texas Hot bridge, you've got to do what I stated above......you flip the white and black (hot & ground)wires on the bridge. You then take the neck and middle pickups and swap their positions in the pickguard, and also swap their hot positions on the 5 way switch.

Tonight, I wasn't dealing with Antiquities, but the concept was the same. I put in a new bridge pickup, and the 2nd position was a small nasally honk sound. When I flipped the black and white wires, the honk was gone, but the 2nd position still had hum. After I flipped the neck and middle (including the wiring) the problem was solved. I now understand the concept of wiring strats with two leads. The problem is even more complicated with humbuckers utilizing the red/white wires.

If you add a Duncan bridge pickup to a PRS, with the stock PRS neck pickup, you'll run into the same kind of phase problem, where the middle position is a thin nasally honk.
Unfortunately, with 2 humbuckers, you can't flip the neck and middle, like you would a strat, to solve the problem. You actually have to flip the maget in one of the pickups to solve the problem.....because you can't turn one pickup around. Doing that will make one pickup look stupid, with the screw poles on the inside. I'm starting to undestand this, but I still want some wiring experts to chime in on this thread......

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

You got two bobins. If you connect them series and have the same polarity (just like on hb's) then you gotta have one bobin wound reverse to cancel hum. So they would not be out of phase as the direction of the polarity is the same, and cancel hum because they are reverse wound.

Now take 2 single coils. You could connect them series and paralel. The standard thing on strats and teles are paralel connections hence the resistance values is not the sum of the resistance of the two bobins, but some "average" given by, 1/x = 1/y(1) + 1/y(2); where x is the overall resistance, y(i) is the resistance of bobin i, i=1,2.

When connected paralel, if the magnetic field is the reverse of each other, using black for the ground and white for the hot would give you the non-out of phase tone. But it might still have 60's hum because there is no guarantee that they are reverse wound. Obviously if the pickups are also reverse wound, you'd eliminate 60's hum as well.

Although it might be obvious at that point let me continue to the last possibility. If the magnetic field has the same poles, then for paralel wiring one has to use the hot as ground in one of the pickups (the other one being standard), because otherwise an out of phase tone would result. Again additionally for the 60's hum they gotta be reverse wound, because otherwise out of phase or not you'd get 60's hum.

Kent S., is this right? :laugh2: Guys correct me if I am wrong.

Best,

B

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

If you've got Antiquity II Surfers, and want to add an Antiquity Texas Hot bridge, you've got to do what I stated above......you flip the white and black (hot & ground)wires on the bridge. You then take the neck and middle pickups and swap their positions in the pickguard, and also swap their hot positions on the 5 way switch.

So the ant I's and surfers (in the very same position) have the same poles, and are reverse wound with each other. So a surfer neck would work with ant I neck, and a surfer bridge would work with an ant I custom bridge, that is there would not be 60's hum when either one of these has the hot grounded (for eliminating the out of phase tone).

:scratchch

B

 

[Breogan]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

I think that the best way to get the thing solve it's going to the basis. Assuming we try understand how two pickups are going to work together...

The first thing is that humcancelling ability it's a matter of the direction the current that flows throught the bobins of the coils and has NOTHING to do with the polarity of the magnet. The result tone could be honky nasal or "standard", but the humcancelling property would be a matter of this current direction. To achieve the humcancelling effect current should flow in oposite directions in each coil. This is because two currents flowing in the same direction throught two similar coils have the same phase. When they "get together" they add its signal. But two currents flowing in different directions in similar coils have oposite phase and when they get together they cancel.

If you wire two single coils together and they doesn't cancel hum this means that the current it's flowing throught the same direction in both coils. If you reverse the conductors of one of the coils you force the current to flow in a opposite direction hence you get the humcalleing effect.

Now the polarity...

 

[Breogan]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Firtly I should say that the signal from noise and from the strings are independant and the result output can be considered as a sum of both.

So, why the signals that comes from the strings doesn't cancel if the bobbings are soldered to have opossite directions? Because the signal that comes from the strings it's a matter of the magnet and the winding direction. The polarity of the magnetic field (North or South) affects the phase of the signal that comes from the strings. So, now imagine you have two coils wired in to have the coils in oposited direction. This means that hum will be cancel. Now we place two magnets with the same polarity facing the strings. Since magnet field has the same polarity the signal originated from the strings will be the same but it would flow through two bobbins with different direction, so the phase will be opposite. This means that output will be cancel (or partialy cancel, hence this nasal tone). If we reverse one of the magnets we will have a coil that will have an opposite direction and a opposite magnetic field. Phase will be reversed two times which means it'll be in phase again.

So noise will cancel in the coils (has nothing to do with magnet) and the signal from the string will add (since it's phase depends both on the coil and the magnet).

Finally...

 

[Breogan]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Note: What it's being said before works for parallel and series conection.

This is a chart to check if two pickups need to reverse the leads or the magnet. There are 4 cases.

1) Humcancelling: Yes - Standard tone: Yes
Means that the coils are in opposite direction and and the polarity in the coils it's opposite. This is the tipical humbucker wiring or the RW/RP pos 2 and 4 in a strat.

2) Humcancelling: No - Standard tone: Yes
Coils in the same direction and magnetic field with the same polarity. Tipical combitaion of two Tele single coils or two P-90.

3) Humcancelling: Yes - Standard tone: No (nasal)
Coils in the opposite direction and manetic field with the same polarity. Ideal here it's to reverse the magnetic polarity but this it's very difficult (or imposible) in most single coils (P-90 are an exception). The common solution it's to reverse the leads of one coil to achieve the previous situation (case 2)

4) Humcancelling: No - Standard tone: No (nasal)
Coils in the same direction and magnets with opposite polatity. The solution it's to reverse one of the leads to achieve first situation. (case 1)

This was a bit long but I hope It was ussefull!!!!

 

[Breogan]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Barlo!!! You were quicker than me!

 

[Artie]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

1) Humcancelling: Yes - Standard tone: Yes
Meas that the coils are in opposite direction and and the polarity in the coils it's opposite. This is the tipical humbucker wiring or the RW/RP pos 2 and 4 in a strat.

I always have trouble with this myself. Kent S. is definitely the "man" on this one. (Although, everyone here seems to have it down.) :laugh2:

I just want to touch on this one point, I'm fairly sure that the two coils in a humbucker, and a neck/middle RW/RP do not have the same relationship to each other. That is, the two coils of a humbucker are wound exactly the same, then connected in series out-of-phase. The red and white wires are the "finish" of the coils, and the black and green are the "start".

Its the opposite polarity of the magnet, that causes the two coils to generate a signal thats out-of-phase, (put back in-phase by the wiring.)

The middle pup of a Strat, however, is RW - reverse wound. So you connect it in-phase with the neck or the bridge. (Both blacks are ground, whites are "hot".)

Hope that was clear.

Oh yeah, and as for the "split", its just a matter of: connect the red/white combo to ground, to activate the stud coil, or "hot" to activate the adjustable coil.

 

[Breogan]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

The middle pup of a Strat, however, is RW - reverse wound. So you connect it in-phase with the neck or the bridge. (Both blacks are ground, whites are "hot".)

Could be... But It'll be simpler just to install the magnet rods in the opposite direction and wind the pickup as a standard one. Then, when you sold the ends of the coil to the conductors you just have to sold them in the opposite way. That will be RW/RP. (Ok, ok, it won't be exactly RW but It will have the same effect :newangel: )

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Let's say you got three Strat pickups ( a set of Duncan SSL-1 California 50's for example ) and don't know which one is the RW/RP middle pickup.

If you take two and put them face to face and they attract, then you know one of them is the middle pickup and RP: Reverse Polarity.

Now you take one of those and put it face to face with the remaining pickup and those two repel. Now you know you have your neck and bridge pickups because they would not be RP relative to each other.

(Whenever you see a pickup marked RW/RP that means it is reverse wound/reverse polarity but only relative to the other pickups in the set! Not to every other pickup in the world!)

So you put them in thier correct positions and you'll have humcancelling when you combine the RW/RP middle pickup with the neck or bridge. And since they're all SSL-1's you should have any out-of-phase issue.

But now you want to put a mixed set of N & M Antiquity Surfers and a bridge Antiquity Texas Hot in another Strat.

In order to have humcancelling when the middle is combined with the neck or bridge the middle must be Reverse Polarity (and also Reverse Wound...not the same as out-of-phase!)
So you take your Texas Hot bridge and one of the Surfers and put them face to face and they attract. The Surfer that attracts is the right one for the middle position.

Just to be sure, you take the other Surfer and put it face to face with the Texas Hot and they repel. Now you know for certain that that Surfer is the neck pickup, regardless of what it is labeled.

So you wire everything up and plug in your guitar. When you combine the middle with the neck it sounds fine. But when you combine the middle with the bridge the tone is thin and out-of-phase!

If you have a Fralin Blender Pot so you can combine the neck and bridge you find that when they are combined that the tone is thin and out-of-phase too!

So you open up your guitar again and reverse the black and white wires of the bridge pickup only. You put the white wire to ground and the black wire to the switch.

(You don't want to reverse the black and white wires of the middle pickup! If you do, it'll be out of phase with the neck pickup which it worked perfectly with!)

Now when you put your guitar back together and plug it in everything works perfectly: you have hamcancelling when the middle is combined with the bridge or neck and all three pickups are now in phase with each other.

Does that help?

Lew

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Yup. I had to do that with my Surfers/Ant I Custom bridge, and last night, I had to do it with my Chubtone 63's, after adding a Chubtone El Gordo bridge. I Emailed him back and suggested that since he's a new custom winder, it'd be in his best interest to make ALL of his pickups jive together. SD doesn't do it because Seymour's goal was to make the 50's and 60's strat pickups TRUE to exact vintage specs. We can blame Leo Fender for that mess!

 

[BlueGuitar]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

...
3) Humcancelling: Yes - Standard tone: No (nasal)
Coils in the opposite direction and manetic field with the same polarity. Ideal here it's to reverse the magnetic polarity but this it's very difficult (or imposible) in most single coils (P-90 are an exception). The common solution it's to reverse the leads of one coil to achieve the previous situation (case 2)

While that was true in the past, there are super-powerful neo magnets available today which will change the polarity of the alnico slugs in a Fender strat or tele pickup. You can order them from Steven Kersting at AMPGE:

http://www.ampge.com/

Great summary! You even included the out-of-phase humcancelling possibility that Seymour forgot to mention in the Donald Brosnac book. (Well, I think that SD was discussing usable linkages in a strat... :smack: )

In working with dummy coils I figured out that magnet polarity has nothing to do with the humcancelling properties (since the dummy coils have no magnets) and everything to do with phasing. At least that's what I think until the medications start to take effect... :saeek:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Kent's right. To achieve humcancelling you want two coils that are reverse wound and reverse polarity relative to each other.

They can be connected in series or in parallel and you'll still have humcancelling. A standard JB or paf type humbucker with 4 conductor cable can have the coils connected in series or in parallel by a switch and still be humcancelling for example.

If two coils are out of phase with each other you will get the thin mosquito tone with no bass that we are trying to avoid.

So you may have to reverse the wiring (instead of black to ground, connect white to ground) on one to correct the thin mosquito tone if it occurs.

It seems there is some confusion here about the differences between:

1. out of phase
2. reverse polarity
3. reverse wound

They are three different things.

Lew

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

bump

 

[Jag513]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

Wow. I just read through that whole thing and learned probably everything I'll ever (and never) need to know about polarity/wind direction. This is definitely Vault-worthy I think.

 

[gripweed]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

You know, all people really have to do is spend $12~$19 for a book on guitar electronics and be done with it, I mean there are only probably a dozen different ones published ...

I have the Brosnac book, could you mention some other good ones?

 

[Breogan]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

While that was true in the past, there are super-powerful neo magnets available today which will change the polarity of the alnico slugs in a Fender strat or tele pickup. You can order them from Steven Kersting at AMPGE:

http://www.ampge.com/

Great summary! You even included the out-of-phase humcancelling possibility that Seymour forgot to mention in the Donald Brosnac book. (Well, I think that SD was discussing usable linkages in a strat... :smack: )

In working with dummy coils I figured out that magnet polarity has nothing to do with the humcancelling properties (since the dummy coils have no magnets) and everything to do with phasing. At least that's what I think until the medications start to take effect... :saeek:

Thanks!!

Your are right about the Donal Bosnac "Guitar electronics for musicians". Almost anything it's covered in that book and I think it's a definitely recomendation to start with. Now it's getting a bit old since it doesn't cover new advances like active or stack pickups... But anyway it's the definitely "the Bible" of guitar electrinics.

And thanks about the info about the magnets... I didn't know that. I certanly solves a problem!!!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Lets Finally Solve the Polarity/Wind Direction Issue

I never said one coil had to be reverse wound ...
One coil does not have to be reverse wound from the other, that can be compensated for by swapping the leads ... phase of a solitary coil if reversed is the same as the coil in question being reverse wound from it's current wind direction.
One coil must have reverse polarity ( magnetically ) however, so that induced signal (guitar) doesn't get partially cancelled out when the phase is inverted.

Hmmmm.... :smack: ....you learn something everyday!