Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

OK another update. I have a diagram sketched out on paper that includes the new ideas you brought up, but there are somethings I would like to discuss with you first before I draw a finalized clean diagram.

Brother I'm so excited with this whole thing! You're a gift from heaven! Again thanks so much my man!... I sure hope you're having as much fun as I am! hehe

-Phase switches between the coils of a pickup: With any other pickup this would be a complete waste of time, but considering the unique construction of the P-rail this is a bit less ridiculous. Since phasing is relative to the other coil pickups this presents an interesting case with the P-rail. If you flip the phase switch between the coils the rail will be OOP in relation to the P90. Now in relation to say the Bridge pickup the rail will also be OOP in relation to that pickup. If you flipped the phase switch for the entire neck pickup the P90 will now be OOP in relation to the other pickups. When you start flipping the other phase switches it gets kinda confusing.
Another example is if say you flip the phase switch on the neck pickup and also on the bridge pickup these 2 pickups will be in phase with each other and the middle pickup will be out of phase.

Yeah I completely get what you're saying. If I was a guitar designer and this was a product I was gonna put in the market I will NEVER put switches for phase options between the coils of the pup because it would be utterly confusing. I would also do what you suggested about using just two switches instead of three for the phase options between pickups (considering you only need one switch less than the number of pups) because having one for each pup can also get very confusing if you don't know how phasing works. That's the case with Brian May's Red Special for example... When I first tried it I just started flipping switches like crazy to hear all the tonal options and though that some of them sounded pretty much the same... That was because it had a phase switch for each pup so for example when I flipped all three I was actually back to in phase config... Couldn't figure it out until I read the instructions and found out what each switch was doing.

But in this case this guitar is for me and as I said at the beginning this is a "tweakers" guitar! I'm a freak about dialing up the tones in my head with amps, effects and routing options (to a degree that some people say I must have dog ears because sometimes they can’t hear the difference! Hehe) so doing it with the guitar itself is just the logical step for me!... With these phase switches I know that in many cases I will have to "flip back" to the upper in phase position before flipping another one or it'll become a mess!

Still nothing is written in stone yet. It is only a mad scientist experiment at this stage! Theoretically it sounds interesting to me to be able to phase shift the coils of a P-Rail (based on my experience I can imagine some exotic tonal colors that can result from this option that I think might be really interesting) but you're right that on any other pickup it would be completely ridiculous, but until I try it and judge if those tones are of any use, this feature is subject to change.

-Rotary switches for tone caps: You can have between 3 and 12 different cap options. Obviously 12 different cap options may be a bit much, but then again you seem to like A LOT of options.

Mmmmm 12 cap options... I'm sure this ain't no surprise but I can think of a lot of cool options using 12 caps! hehe... For example I can have caps from 0.1uF (for those Nocaster and Esquire 50's ultra bassy tones that Leo Fender put so that the guitar could act as a bass with the tone rolled off) all the way down to 0.010 (as you find in the modern wiring for Gibson Les Pauls) or lower (for a treble bleed effect).

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

I do have a questions regarding this scheme with the rotaries for cap switching: the caps on these rotary switches are going to act as regular tone pot caps (wired in series between the tone pot and the ground as I understand) and not as treble bleed caps (as in varitone switches wired to the output to accentuate frequencies), right? I mean the rotary only works as a switching device so I can decide what cap goes on the signal for frequency cut-off when the tone pot is rolled off but the selected cap itself ends up been wired to the pot as on a regular one cap scheme? Hope I'm not saying something stupid here because as you know I'm no tech, but that's the way I understand caps wired to the pot work in comparisson to how a varitone functions (please correct me if I'm wrong so I can learn!) so I just wanna know if this scheme will indeed act as a way to "remove and replace" caps on the fly at the flip of the rotary (as shown in this article for example: http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Mar/The_Stratocaster_Cap_Switching_Mod.aspx). What I'm aiming at here is for what you get with the tone switches of a Gretsch guitar where you select between two cap values at the flip of a switch (only in this case with 12 options!), not what you get with the varitone switch of a Gibson BB King Lucille where the signal that goes to the outpot comes across the selectable capacitors and drops out different frequencies to give you several interesting starting points for your sound.

-Since you want the dual concentric pots to be switchable tone pots I thought you may be interested in another idea. Dual gang pots might be an option as well. The DC pots will allow you to adjust the 250k and 500k pot independently, and with a DG pot you turn both pots at the same time. For example if you had the 500k pot turned to 5 and switched to the 250k portion it would also be at 5. Either way this doesn't effect the wiring just how you control them.

Very nice idea! I like it a lot! Let's do it that way. Anyway I see no practicality on using separate knobs if both pots are gonna be controlling the same pickup and you just switch between them. That way I can even use matching knobs for the tone pots and the rotaries (as to maintain the original look... more on this below) instead of having replace them for dual concentric pod knobs that I don't like that much (they're ok for Danelectros and the sorts but on my Epi they would seem kinda out of place)

-You should get some measurements underneath the pickguard so you know where to place the switches. Also the distance from the edge of the body to the closest pot hole to see if the rotary switches will fit there or have to be placed in the top holes.

Absolutely

-As far as knobs go for the rotary switches, you can use pretty much whatever you like. In general most rotary switches have a solid shaft, so you will need a knob that attaches with a screw, but there are a lot of those. I don't know what you are going for looks wise but I can help find parts that you might like.

Absolutely man, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! What I'm aiming at looks wise is to hopefully have matching knobs on the tones and rotaries so that the guitar looks as regular "separate volume and tone pots for each pickup" config (as on a Gibson ES-5 which has 3 volumes and 3 tones). Now, what I'm not sure is if that will work ok for the rotaries since at 12 options it becomes important to identify that cap number you're at (else I will always have to be counting from zero forward or twelve backwards to get to the desired middle values... see what I mean?). A regular numbered knob may do the job though, just keeping in mind that after ten it will have two more positions at one (which will be eleven) and two (which will be twelve).


On a side note, what did you thought about my idea of using the thumbwheels controls for volumes and shunting 750K resistor on the middle and bridge pots to bring the value down to 300K? Is that possible with this type of pots? I email the guys from Schatten and they said there was no problem but they didn't give much explanation so I don't know how to accomplish it or how that will affect the sweep (as far as I can tell, it might affect the position of the values within the range but 10 will still be 10 and 0 will still be 0, so there shouldn't be any problems).

Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Well here it is

I do have to say that this is probably one of the more ridiculous wiring schemes Ive come up with, but I loved doing it.

- if the Neck Pickup is set to Series, the Middle to Off, and the Bridge to Parallel, the 2 pickups will be wired in Parallel. So far that is the only "quirk" about this scheme and hat is simply because a pickup has to be EITHER in parallel or series. Can't break the laws of physics lol

- I drew the rotary as a 2P6T as this seems like the most useful way to go. You will have plenty of cap option and also have somewhere tidy as a common ground point. Obviously other rotary switches can be accommodated for simply by adding another cap and leg to the configuration.

-I left the DC tone pots unlabeled as far as 500k/250k becasue I don't know the configuration of the pots you will obtain.

-I didn't draw a shunting resistor on the volume becasue I wasn't sure if you were definitely going to go down that road, but if you do simply wire the resistor between legs 1 and 3 of the pot (Schattens work like a regular pot).

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

VERY NICE my man! It’s an insane job for sure and I’m glad someone had the guts to go for it with me! Hahaha… You rock dude!

I do have to say that this is probably one of the more ridiculous wiring schemes Ive come up with, but I loved doing it.

Hahaha… Oh COME ON brother! Is it really THAT ridiculous?! (I mean besides the phase options within the pickup which is most definitely a crazy experiment!)… Wow if the mod gurus at the SD forum think I’m crazy then I might just be the worst modding looney ever! Hahaha… Still I’m glad you had a good time doing it! It’s been indeed a fun ride so far!

- if the Neck Pickup is set to Series, the Middle to Off, and the Bridge to Parallel, the 2 pickups will be wired in Parallel. So far that is the only "quirk" about this scheme and hat is simply because a pickup has to be EITHER in parallel or series. Can't break the laws of physics lol

Yeah that’s absolutely logical… As I said, it’s the same thing as with the phase switches. You gotta know what you're doing or it will just become a complete mess and make no sense at all. The scheme isn’t meant to be an “intuitive” one. It’s definitely a tweaker’s tool. Much in the way in which many effects processors and amps are complicated because of the exhaustive dialing options they have, while others are pretty straight forward plug-and-play monsters! Both have their uses I think so I’ve never ruled one out for the other. You just gotta figure out what necessity they’re trying to cover and see if it’s one you have.

- I drew the rotary as a 2P6T as this seems like the most useful way to go. You will have plenty of cap option and also have somewhere tidy as a common ground point. Obviously other rotary switches can be accommodated for simply by adding another cap and leg to the configuration.

I still have a question on regards to this part simply because not being a tech guy makes it hard for me to figure it out just by looking at the diagram! Are the caps on these rotary switches going to act as regular tone pot caps (wired in series between the tone pot and the ground as I understand) and not as treble bleed caps (as in varitone switches wired to the output to accentuate frequencies), right? I mean the rotary only works as a switching device so I can decide what cap goes on the signal for frequency cut-off when the tone pot is rolled off but the selected cap itself ends up been wired to the pot as on a regular one cap scheme?

-I left the DC tone pots unlabeled as far as 500k/250k becasue I don't know the configuration of the pots you will obtain.

Got it!... One question only: the pink switches (for pot selection) are Double Pole ON/ON/ON or ON/OFF/ON? (don’t know if it makes a difference 'cause I ain’t sure if the off position can act as a bypass so I thought I’ll ask). By the way, do you have any idea where I can find those Dual Gang concentric pots you recommended so that I can have the two stacked pots be in the same position at all time? I’m really interested in doing it this way instead of in the regular dual concentric manner where both pots work separately (I look them up in the regular places like allparts and stew-mac and couldn’t find them)

-I didn't draw a shunting resistor on the volume becasue I wasn't sure if you were definitely going to go down that road, but if you do simply wire the resistor between legs 1 and 3 of the pot (Schattens work like a regular pot).

That’s fine bro. Actually that one I’m still thinking about. I guess I will have to try it out and see what works best. Thing is I think 300K volumes for middle and bridge (especially for bridge which is quite hot because of the Alnico 8 magnets) will be nice to balance them a lil’ bit in relation to the neck, and may also work as a nice middle compromise point for when you switch between the 250K and 500K in tone pot values. On the other hand, I’ve read many reviews at other threads that say the rails on these pups are already a bit dark and that even the humbuckers can turn to mudd easily (and that’s usually using 500K pots). So 500Ks on volume may help a lil’ bit on that regard. Guess we’ll have to wait and see!


Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

-the pink switches are 2p3t on-on-on
-the green switches are 3p3t on-on-on
-the blue and yellow switches are dpdt on-on
- the rotary switch simply swaps the cap on the tone pot (not treble bleed)

A lot of the parts can be found very cheaply on mouser.com and I can help you get the right ones. When drawing up the diagram I checked to make sure they actually existed first lol

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Wow man! You did think about everything! You're great brother!

- I sure will appreciate your help selecting the right parts! Can you send me some links or part numbers?

- On regards to the switches: blue, yellow and green switches are slides and pink are mini-toggles, right?

- Finally, on regards to the rotary switches a couple of questions:

(1) One of the positions is suppose to be a bypass (no cap). So all I have to do is just exclude the cap from the position I want to use as bypass, right?

(2) In the diagram it shows only 6 caps as we talked about ... But in case I wanna go crazy and use all 12 spaces, will I need to do some more wiring or is it just a matter of filling the other spaces with caps?

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

-I'll gather together the part numbers and send you links. i believe you can get the thumbwheels there as well, and they will be about $3 not $23

-The pink switch can be either a mini toggle or slide. This is where you bypass the tone pot. If you simply removed a cap the tone pot would act as a volume control (i think) either way it isn't good to have unnecessary components in the signal chain, especially one this long.

-If you want more caps you just add more. the diagram used a 2p6t and you are only using half of it. If you want 12 it will be 1p12t, but it would be wired the same.

-Also I forgot to mention but when a pickup is set to the off position the the tone and volume circuit for that pickup is taken of the signal, so you don't load it down.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

-I'll gather together the part numbers and send you links. i believe you can get the thumbwheels there as well, and they will be about $3 not $23

Awesome!

-The pink switch can be either a mini toggle or slide. This is where you bypass the tone pot. If you simply removed a cap the tone pot would act as a volume control (i think) either way it isn't good to have unnecessary components in the signal chain, especially one this long.

That makes sense since caps have no perceived effect when tone knobs are rolled all the way up to 10, so at that position is like having no cap. Interesting. Don't know what I was thinking!

-If you want more caps you just add more. the diagram used a 2p6t and you are only using half of it. If you want 12 it will be 1p12t, but it would be wired the same.

Got it!... I ran this this scheme through my buddy Jonesy (David Jones from www.tonemojo.com) who's an expert in caps and we're coming out with the perfect combination of cap values and types to fill all 12 spaces on the rotary switches... I'll report back when we're done!

-Also I forgot to mention but when a pickup is set to the off position the the tone and volume circuit for that pickup is taken of the signal, so you don't load it down.

That makes sense! Good thinking bro!


Cheers!

 

[crguti]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

you could ask to nalo1022 if he can install it for you.

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Lol I would install it, but I don't know where matizadomrb is located, so it might have to be shipped.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Oh brother! Having nalo1022 do the job would be heaven!... But I'm located in San José, Costa Rica so shipping the guitar back and forth (considering nalo1022 is in the US) would cost me some $400 or $500 for shipping, handling and custom fees... Still, I do have family in Chicago and they come quite often to Costa Rica (they have businesses here) so if one of my cousins can do me the favor of taking the guitar back to the US, ship it to nalo1022, then receive it and bring it back here, then it might just work... Where are youblocated nalo1022?

In Costa Rica we do have a great electric guitars luthier called Chris Scott (he's American and the guy worked for 25 years at the Fender Corona Factory). He's fantastic at execution so if I give him nalo1022's diagram and all the parts he needs for the job, he will do it no problem... But he has absolutely no patience for drawing something like this for me!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Lol yeah shipping would be outrageous. I just looked it up and I could get a round trip flight to San Jose for about $450, it would be cheaper to ship me to Costa Rica.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Wow! Go figure! hehehe... Well my man if you ever wanna grab one of those cheap tickets and spend some days down here you can definitely count on my services as your designated tour guide!

Hey man I have another question... I was looking a the diagram and was wondering if flipping the middle and bridge pups will somehow alter the diagram (in the middle and bridge pups I want the Rails facing south towards the bridge because I've read around here that it has given better results to people using P-Rails)

I ask because I see the 4 wires coming out of the pickups labeled as "North/South Start/Finish" which leds me to belive the wiring is affected by the position. I may be completely wrong here but that doubt has just come to my mind and that's why I ask.

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

No it won't effect the wiring diagram. The North and South refer to the polarity of the magnet. You can simply turn the pickup around.

-While looking at the Triple Shot wiring diagram I noticed something you might be interested in as well. They have an alternate wiring method so that the switches point towards the coil you want active in split mode. Its easier to understand when you look at the diagram. It is under reverse wiring . The pictures explain it better and it seems more intuitive to me.

http://www.seymourduncan.com/images/products/electric/humbuckers/triple_shot_diagram.pdf

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Got it!

Very nice option! I like it a lot. Then the way you did it in the diagram is what the call "Standard Wiring"?

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

In the diagram I just showed the wires that would go to the Triple Shot's board, so you could wire it either way.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Awesome!... Have I told you later that you're the best, bro?!... DAMN! I don't know how you've had the patience to deal with such an ignorant bastard like me! hahaha

Really you rock, my man!

Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Lol I enjoy doing this kind of stuff, an I was ignorant as hell once myself. you were also easier to deal with than other people with simple schemes. You knew what you wanted, but didn't know how to put it together...also you could take advice on how to make the scheme better.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Hey buddy!

Did you have a chance to make the parts list? I've just been over to mouser.com but couldn't find a lot of the parts (like the 250K/500K dual gang concentric pots, the 1P12T rotary switches, or the 500K Audio thumbwheel volume pots). I haven't done a profound search yet because the last couple of days have been kinda crazy at work, but I will greatly appreciate your help here so I don't end up buying the wrong parts!

Cheers brother!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Sorry this weekend was pretty busy had our friend's daughters 5th birthday then my cousins wedding/reception. and this

I have tomorrow off so i should be able to round up some part numbers for ya