Lowering Floyd Rose nut

[Inflames626]

Hi all,
I'm replacing my various licensed JT580LP bridges with FR Pros, R3 nuts. I haven't ordered them yet. I know people have had mixed results based on JCFOnline's posts, but for the most part the replacement looks pretty sound.

I've searched the forums and while I've found some people discussing lowering the nut, I didn't see any detailed discussions of procedures or tools.

I've heard some people say that the FR nuts are taller than the licensed nuts and that this can mess up the action and intonation. What's the procedure for lowering the nut? My thinking was I'd take a digital caliper and measure the height of the respective nuts, subtract the difference, and remove that amount of wood. The problem is I'm not sure how to do this precisely and in a way where the nut channel is level.

I'm also expecting a widening of the post holes, which I will do with a small circular file and some patience. Why spend all that money for high quality metal to have your bridge pivot on the old cheap posts?

I appreciate all input.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

Just some advise here :
- if your nut does its job then DO NOT REPLACE IT.
- if your nut gives sitar notes on most open strings then replace it.
- there is no guarantee that the new Schaller/Gotoh/<insert your premium trem maker here> nut will be better than than your stock one
- if your nut (orig or new) gives buzzing open notes or too high action, it needs setup anyway
- if your nut is too low then shim it either on all its base or half, there are special shims that do that
- if your nut is too high and this is an expensive guitar (or just a guitar you like) DO NOT SAND OR FILE THE WOOD! this spot is guitar's weakest spot already, no need to make it worse. In this case sand the nut's base.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

I'm also expecting a widening of the post holes, which I will do with a small circular file and some patience. Why spend all that money for high quality metal to have your bridge pivot on the old cheap posts?

No need to replace the nut if its working fine. IF it does come down to needing to be lowered...might wanna have a luthier do that as you probably dont have too much wood to work with. If its a tiny amount you could sand it with a block, but it needs to be EVEN.

Also, can you please clarify the above statement? Is the post spacing the same on these trems? Or are the studs just bigger? Do yourself a favour if its either of these and FILL AND REDRILL. Do it the right way once.

 

[zenmindbeginner]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

There is a difference... why are you doing this?

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

Licensed bridges do not flutter, especially the Takeguchi JT580LP. They also tend to come out of tune ever so slightly with vigorous whammy usage. Some of my bridges are 15-20 years old.

The official bridges are made out of hardened steel. The reason why I'm concerned about the nut is the material is soft and string slippage will occur. I do not have a grinding wheel to grind the steel and, even if I did, how would I measure that the steel reduction would be exact and consistent along the bottom?

The reason why I'm concerned about post diameter is because most import guitars are metric and feature slightly smaller holes. I've already had to use a taper reamer on pot holes and I assume that other diameters will be similar.

If the nut is too high, there's nothing that a setup further down the line (working with the truss rod/bridge action etc) will do to fix the problem, as the action will always be higher if the nut is taller.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

Here's a site that examines the issue in depth.

http://audiozone.dk/index-filer/TremoloInfoProject.htm

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

I am familiar with the Jackson/ Charvel bridges.

IF the post spacing is the same, you could use the old posts. however, something that old I would replace (as I recently did on my model 4). Filling and redrilling is the only way to go here. Especially if this is on a basswood body. Having a hardwood insert (i.e. the dowel used to fill) will actually help with reliability as heavy use on posts in basswood can sometimes wear out the wood which causes the posts to creep out.

As for the nut. Let's get some measurements on that. As for the cheaper steel...if you dont see any grooves on the lock plates than your not getting slippage. Have a good look, you may need to only replace the plates vs the nut base.

got any pictures of these things?

 

[Brandenburg]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

i shake my head .. when people change a 580lp for a OFR/fr pro.. an expensive mod with little benefit vs. cost. Its ya's money but to me, its sounds like ya are throwing away that money.I had a chance to replace my 580lp awhile back but after thinking about it, I decided against it..cost vs benefit was negligible. hell 580lp works fine and stays in tune great.. as long as its properly set-up and taken care of that is,..

as for the post.. I could be wrong but i thought the post on a 580lp was hardened steel..? wouldn't call that cheap and the fr post would only be marginally better at best IMO..If it works, why change it?

to each their own though..

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

Brandenburg, point taken. However, I own a variety of Japanese imported Jacksons made from 1996-2006 or so. All use some variety of the JT580LP or the OFR equivalent with the posts sticking far out the back. In my experience, after heavy whammy use (as in Slayer), they will all detune slightly because the metal is not hard enough to hold the string in place.

The most important aspect is flutter, though, which these will not do period. If you slap the bar, it flubs.

It's something that I've been putting off for 15-20 years but I'm gutting a guitar to replace pickups and so I figured I might as well do the bridge too.

At the very least, I have an Indian made Dinky with a single locking trem (ball end is held in at the bridge) that I could experiment with.

My thinking was I could take something like this and go very slowly by hand to widen the post holes. I prefer to use hand tools because it is less easy to make a mistake due to their gradual nature, and I don't have things like a drill press or clamp.

http://www.amazon.com/Kobalt-SPEED-19pc-Precision-0294699/dp/B00BOU9TD4

Kamanda-SD, I need to secure a caliper to measure the nut, I think. I've measured it with a steel rule but these measures are so fine I want to make sure I'm accurate.

I hope you're right on the nut not being a required change out. All the same, the tuning stability is only going to be as strong as its weakest link.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

The reason why I'm concerned about the nut is the material is soft and string slippage will occur.

will???? so it's not happening already?? man, if you experience string slippage then you don't clamp hard enough, and if you do and still have slippage then some sanding on nuts top + pad's bottom would solve that in seconds. Are your nut's bolt or hole thread's stripped? There is permanent reliable fix for that as well.
Seems to me that you are in desperate need for some mod and don't know how to throw your money away.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

they will all detune slightly because the metal is not hard enough to hold the string in place.
The most important aspect is flutter, though, which these will not do period. If you slap the bar, it flubs.

Your problem is worn knife edges on the plate. There is tons of literature on that. You may try to sharpen them or just go and by a used OFR plate (and hope it fits). Mind you, I dont have many miles in my Carvin's OFR and the thing will not even come close to the Ibanez edge zero II as far as floating (flutter) is concerned. It is just the design of the thing.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

I have to disagree with you, greekdude. You can't take shortcuts to OFR quality if the metal in the bridge is too soft. While I appreciate your help, all of these shortcuts will not result in the tuning stability and flutter I am looking for if the bridge is made out of inferior metal in the first place.

They didn't flutter when they were brand new because the metal was too soft to hold a good edge.

I'm hesitant of picking and choosing parts and taking shortcuts because, again, I don't want the overall project to suffer because of an inferior part somewhere in the chain. Probably the only thing I'm not going to do is use a string retainer because my guitars aren't drilled for them.

The base plate is the biggest part of it, but if the saddles and saddle blocks are inferior, they will not hold the strings in place either. And a used base plate could be worn, requiring sharpening with precision tools that I do not have and making precise measurements. And there's no guarantee that the tolerances between the import saddle screws and OFR will match up in a tight fit.

My concerns about the OFR vs. the Edge is 1) I'm just not big on Ibbys apart from Icemans and Destroyers and 2) this gentleman has evaluated flutter betwen OFRs and Edges and the OFRs sound superior in this case at 5: 1 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwGcY6T4xHc

If anything, I would tend to overtighten my clamps, but the strings still slip because, again, the metal is too soft. Sanding the nut or pads will be the same as wearing grooves in them over time due to string use. You are creating a rough surface area to catch the string, but you are also removing material so that the string has more room to move and come out of tune.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

Also, a quick way to evaluate this is to weigh the OFR bridge vs. the JT580LP. Heavier=better metal.

When I'm able to do this I'll post results.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

All the same, you'll notice I'm not carrying on about titanium blocks, big blocks, etc. Now to me, that is wasting money.

The only thing I'm predicting that I'll miss about the JT580LP is a smoother movement due to its lighter weight.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

If anything, I would tend to overtighten my clamps, but the strings still slip because, again, the metal is too soft.

man, if you experience string slippage then you don't clamp hard enough, .

NO no no no NO no NOOOOOO. DON'T over-tighten, THAT'S what causes them to wear.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

Exactly, and yet if you under tighten, you have a problem as well.

I think it's safe to say that no one really knows how to lower the nut channel and, because they don't know how, they are afraid to take out some wood and so are recommending other things.

In any case, these bridges are 15-20 years old and have been moderately used (a few hours a day). I think it's time they be switched out.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

I have to disagree with you, greekdude. You can't take shortcuts to OFR quality if the metal in the bridge is too soft. While I appreciate your help, all of these shortcuts will not result in the tuning stability and flutter I am looking for if the bridge is made out of inferior metal in the first place.

They didn't flutter when they were brand new because the metal was too soft to hold a good edge.

I'm hesitant of picking and choosing parts and taking shortcuts because, again, I don't want the overall project to suffer because of an inferior part somewhere in the chain. Probably the only thing I'm not going to do is use a string retainer because my guitars aren't drilled for them.

The base plate is the biggest part of it, but if the saddles and saddle blocks are inferior, they will not hold the strings in place either. And a used base plate could be worn, requiring sharpening with precision tools that I do not have and making precise measurements. And there's no guarantee that the tolerances between the import saddle screws and OFR will match up in a tight fit.

My concerns about the OFR vs. the Edge is 1) I'm just not big on Ibbys apart from Icemans and Destroyers and 2) this gentleman has evaluated flutter betwen OFRs and Edges and the OFRs sound superior in this case at 5: 1 0: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwGcY6T4xHc

If anything, I would tend to overtighten my clamps, but the strings still slip because, again, the metal is too soft. Sanding the nut or pads will be the same as wearing grooves in them over time due to string use. You are creating a rough surface area to catch the string, but you are also removing material so that the string has more room to move and come out of tune.

soft metal this soft metal that. Soft metal would be an additional reason for the string to NOT slip, (sort of self-filing/sanding effect) (but the threads to strip). You gotta isolate your problems, stop generalizing and concentrate on learning instead of assuming and blindly ordering. The comment on the edge zero II was STRICTLY on the floating part. Learn to read accurately what ppl say.

 

[greekdude]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

NO no no no NO no NOOOOOO. DON'T over-tighten, THAT'S what causes them to wear.

Look I am trying to help after being a floyd user for some 30 years, having setup, installed, REPAIRED etc.. many OFRs, FRIIs, Edge's etc.... You Wanna just oppose for the sake of opposing its OK, but I cannot help there, besides our friend has made up his mind to spend his money no matter what.
(btw yes if the nut is crap and you overtighten with all the strength of your full hand it will strip, I tend to use one or two fingers with moderate torque)

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

OFR pads are typically a bit oversized compared to the import pads, so replacing them doesn't always work out.

While I don't have specific, micronal measurements, the OFR nut is in the area of 1/8" to 3/16" taller, so there should be plenty of wood, unless you are looking at a wafer-thin JTX neck; then I'd be concerned. If it's a Dinky Rev (offset dots), DK2 (HSS) or DK2M neck, then you should have plenty.
Sanding down the nut base will be very difficult by hand. Ideally you'd want a mechanical surface grinder where you can clamp the nut with the base up and pass the grinder over it evenly over several passes, removing small amounts of material with each pass. Hand-sanding, even with a flat bock, still risks uneven pressure, which makes an uneven surface.

The problem I see with hand-tooling post holes is that you'll be eye-balling what should be a circle. You might contact Dave at Fretsonthenet and see if he can mill some OFR-style posts with import threading (might have to send him yours for a reference/guide) so you can keep the original inserts.

 

[Inflames626]

Re: Lowering Floyd Rose nut

greekdude, I'll make it simple:

Do you agree or disagree that the hardness of a bridge's metal affects its tuning stability? Yes or no? This is where we disagree. If the metal is harder, the bridge will be heavier, the edges will not wear, and it will balance better, allowing flutter.

Seymour Duncan's site would seem to agree:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/t...pact-of-metal-on-a-floyd-rose-equipped-guitar

Because I have personally played some of the FR1000 bridges on the Ibby import Satch models, I can say that those bridges were better than the JT580LP. The only disadvantage, again, was the increased weight that made the pivoting action less smooth.

You didn't say overtighten, but, as far as tightening, one person's tight is another person's overtight.

So I'll make it simple.

I'm going OFR Pro. And I need to know how to deepen the nut channel.

I appreciate all input.