Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

I don't know how feasable that would be on a 5150?

A 6V6 can only handle a limited plate voltage compared to a 6L6. This can be done with a JTM45 or a Tweed bassman, by using a different rectifier tube and rebiasing, but the 5150 is a different animal.

Somebody else would have to advise on Yellow Jackets.

You would probably have a impedance matching nightmare with running a speaker from the FX loop.

60 watts will still be too loud.

A THD Hot Plate is probably your best course of action, IMO.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

Ideally, a Weber attenuator is the best way to do it, but here's a trick I use on amps like the 5150, just to tame them down for bedroom levels....

Get a cheap little Alesis Nanoverb, since it has input/mix/output. Put it in the FX loop and set the input so it sounds best. You'll also appreciate the reverb added to the 5150 using the mix knob. Then, use the output knob as a global master volume. It's not really attenuating the power amp, it's just choking off preamp volume, while still getting the gain you want. It's the same concept as bending a garden hose in half, and it won't hurt the Nanoverb or the amp.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

Or get a powerscaling mod to it??
But an attenuator is as said above very handy and works very well!

 

[ElUnoAstuto]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

I'm kinda' two steps ahead of you Gearjoneser, I've got one of those volume boxes in the 5150's FX loop, and that's what I'm using as a master volume. I've got the volume box set way low, and the channel volume at 2-3.

I pulled two of the power tubes this afternoon, out of 1234, I pulled 2 and 4. This is appropriate right? Becaue it's a push/pull amp, one side is push, and the other is pull, so if you think of it as AABB, as long as you have an A and a B, I'm good right? I also set the impedence to 8 for the output, because the 5150 cab is 16 ohms. What affect does this have on the tubes/head? Is this detrimental?

IMO, pulling 2 of the 4 power tubes doesn't really give you any perceptable decrease in volume, it seems to lower the headroom if anything. 120 watts on 3 is perceptably just as loud as 60 watts on 3.

Speaker cabinets, OTOH, make a big difference. With the same settings, the 5150 through it's matching cab is very boomy, with lots of low end and lots of projection, it goes through the whole house. I ran the 5150 through the Valveking's 50w 16 ohm speaker, and it made a much bigger difference in volume, dropping it down to the bedroom volume that I wanted. I was still able to get good tone, and the volume level was private enough that you couldn't really hear it that far out from the bedroom door, which was nice. So now I guess I'm looking for a good 1x12 or 2x12.

My conclusion: If you're looking to lower the volume of a high power halfstack to bedroom volumes, and still retain usable tone, pull two of the power tubes, and run it through a 1x12 or 2x12 with lower wattage speakers, for those who aren't looking to attenuate.

Still got to try an attenuator today though, I wanna' hear what all the fuss is about.

 

[Farkus]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

I'm not sure for the 5150...I've never pulled power amp tubes, but I always thought you pulled the two outer or two inner tubes? Can anyone verify which way it should be done?

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

1. Sell the 5150
2. Buy a Pod XT
3. Download the Metal mod pack that contains the 5150 model
4. Buy a pair of Sennheiser HD-280 headphones

Sorry, but unless you're planning on playing somewhere outside your bedroom, the only reason to have an amp like that is vanity. If you only play in your bedroom, get a bedroom setup.

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

1. Sell the 5150
2. Buy a Pod XT
3. Download the Metal mod pack that contains the 5150 model
4. Buy a pair of Sennheiser HD-280 headphones

Sorry, but unless you're planning on playing somewhere outside your bedroom, the only reason to have an amp like that is vanity. If you only play in your bedroom, get a bedroom setup.

A lot of truth in that. I still can't believe he bought that 5150 halfstack for the price of a POD! :smack: :fingersx:

 

[StratTom]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

I pulled two of the power tubes this afternoon, out of 1234, I pulled 2 and 4. This is appropriate right? Becaue it's a push/pull amp, one side is push, and the other is pull, so if you think of it as AABB, as long as you have an A and a B, I'm good right? I also set the impedence to 8 for the output, because the 5150 cab is 16 ohms. What affect does this have on the tubes/head? Is this detrimental?

IMO, pulling 2 of the 4 power tubes doesn't really give you any perceptable decrease in volume, it seems to lower the headroom if anything. 120 watts on 3 is perceptably just as loud as 60 watts on 3.

Speaker cabinets, OTOH, make a big difference. With the same settings, the 5150 through it's matching cab is very boomy, with lots of low end and lots of projection, it goes through the whole house. I ran the 5150 through the Valveking's 50w 16 ohm speaker, and it made a much bigger difference in volume, dropping it down to the bedroom volume that I wanted. I was still able to get good tone, and the volume level was private enough that you couldn't really hear it that far out from the bedroom door, which was nice. So now I guess I'm looking for a good 1x12 or 2x12.

My conclusion: If you're looking to lower the volume of a high power halfstack to bedroom volumes, and still retain usable tone, pull two of the power tubes, and run it through a 1x12 or 2x12 with lower wattage speakers, for those who aren't looking to attenuate.

Still got to try an attenuator today though, I wanna' hear what all the fuss is about.

I think you're supposed to pull the outside 2 tubes or the 2 inside ones. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

If you're looking for an inexpensive 2x12 cab I highly recommend an Avatar cab! http://avatarspeakers.com/

I think I'm going to try pulling 2 of my tubes tonight. Of course I won't be able to crank my amp up loud enough, but I still have wanted to do that for some time now.

 

[ElUnoAstuto]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

Ratherdashing, as much as I hate to admit it, you're absolutely right. Having a 5150 is just ridiculous for use in the bedroom, BUT, it's one of those things I've dreamed about for years and years, and always wanted, but never thought I'd be able to afford, because I don't like playing expensive gear, and it just fell into my lap. I'll probably come to that realization soon enough, so for now, humor me! :laugh2:

Actually, I'm probably gonna' just leave the 5150 halfstack here at my folks house until I get a house, or get with a serious band, and go the route you suggested while I'm in dormitory/apartment conditions. I've got a Digitech GNX1 into some $10 headphones that I'm actually pretty happy with, and I was thinking about getting a cheap little 15-30 watt SS combo(Peavey of course) to run it through, for those times when I've just gotta' hear some air moving. Actually, I think it's time for a "which modeller thread". Lol.:chairfall

 

[devastone]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

You usually pull either the 2 outside tubes or the 2 inside tubes, not alternating tubes. At least for Marshalls, I would suspect the Peavey is the same.

As far as reducing the volume, not much unless you are running it wide open.

 

[ElUnoAstuto]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

I don't understand this common misconception. You DONT have to pull either the outside pair or inside pair. In a 4 power tube amp, one pair is push and the other is pull, like AABB, and as long as you're left with one A and one B, you're fine. Any EE's or other tube knowledgables out there that can correct me if I'm wrong? It'd suck to blow up my new 5150!

 

[Farkus]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

I don't understand this common misconception. You DONT have to pull either the outside pair or inside pair. Any EE's or other tube knowledgables out there that can correct me if I'm wrong? It'd suck to blow up my new 5150!

Um, you don't seem to be sure that this is a common misconception.

If you aren't sure, for your amps sake, I'd replace the tubes and get an attenuating device or other product (I don't know much about power scaling). IIRC even if you pull the two 'correct' tubes you'll only be lowering the output by 6 dB's or so (at least this is true of a 50 watt vs 100 watt Marshall, as far as I know) and this just isn't enough to do what you're wanting.

 

[ElUnoAstuto]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

You're missing the principle, it's not the lowered volume resulting from the tube pull, it's the ability to run lower wattage speakers, i.e. a 1x12.

 

[Farkus]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

You're missing the principle, it's not the lowered volume resulting from the tube pull, it's the ability to run lower wattage speakers, i.e. a 1x12.

While I see what you're saying, you can still get a single 12 inch speaker that is rated for 120W plus, for example the excellent Emi Tonker, which is rated up to 150 watts. This will be quieter than a 4x12 despite the fact that it is still 120 watts and you don't risk blowing up the amp by removing tubes.

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

He'll also have earlier breakup from the amp with lower wattage so he won't have to turn it up that much...
That's basically the main difference between a 100 and a 50... headroom.

 

[disturb]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

To lower the volume, just turn it down. If you like a certain sound at a certain volume. Then go amp -> speaker simulator -> power amp -> speakers. That is the only way to do it correctly and get the same tone. Although you won't get any speaker breakup, if that is part of the sound. Hot plate/attenuators fu** with the tone. Pulling tubes will change the sound a little and not lower the volume that much.

 

[Farkus]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

He'll also have earlier breakup from the amp with lower wattage so he won't have to turn it up that much...
That's basically the main difference between a 100 and a 50... headroom.

I couldn't agree with your headroom comment more.

I could see speaker breakup being an issue, but honestly a 5150 is a crunch machine as it is. I didn't notice an appreciable improvement in gain/tone at all when the amp was run at high volume...with so much pre-amp gain on tap I preferred the master at about 4 o'clock, otherwise it got too flabby for me; power amp distortion really wasn't needed from my standpoint and I like a lot of gain.

Overall, I think he's got a nuke when he needs a firecracker, but my policy has always been 'better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it', so I can't be too critical, lol :laugh2:

 

[More-Gear-Than-Skill]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

...and he's completely honest about being overpowered. That's rare. The lowering output power to better suit the speaker, I'd think shouldn't be an issue... I'm sure in a bedroom situation you could use a 15watt speaker outta the full tube complement....as long as you don't open the master (which you're not going to anyhow) But then again... if your little brother... Hmmm bad idea, ignore..

 

[ElUnoAstuto]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

Yeah, the 50w vs 100w gave me no useful decrease in volume, only headroom, and with the 5150, I DONT want power tube distortion! Lol, I like the way it sounds with the preamp gain dialed in. I'll probably replace all the tubes with a full retube kit from Eurotubes, and just run it into a 1x12, since the speaker cabinet seemed to make the most difference in volume. It's nice too, because with the loss of bass and bite from going from a 4x12 to a 1x12, I can make up for with the Resonance/Presence controls, and still maintain bedroom volumes. I'm not really too happy with the tube pull. I think that if it were something like a Marshall, and you wanted that power tube breakup, it'd be viable, but on a high gain amp where your sound comes from the preamp tubes, I think pulling the tubes just isn't worth the trouble, or the strain on the amp.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Lowering volume on high power tube amps, tips?

If you want to have a 5150, and it's what youv'e always wanted, then I say more power to ya! Why pass on a great deal just because your not playing in band right at the moment?

I like the idea of using a head, and what ever speaker cabinet is appropriate anyway. You could have a 1x12, 2x12, plus the 4x12 cab, for more flexability.

Use a speaker in the 1x12 with a db sensitivity of 97 or 98, instead of 100 or 101, and enough power handling to take the wattage.