Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

[haas]

First of all, I want to thank everybody who has posted about magnet swapping over the past few years! Based on the knowledge I gained from reading the archives, I recently went through the fun and rewarding experience of swapping out magnets in the '57 Classic/Classic Plus set that came in my Les Paul Classic Antique. I wanted what pretty much everybody wants out of this set: better definition in the neck pickup, tighter low end and more "bite" in the bridge. I was also hoping to balance the output a bit better, as my "Plus" pickup only has an extra 200 Ohms of winding (7.8K neck vs 8.0K bridge).

I initially tried the A3/UOA5 combo. This yielded great bridge tones and seemed to help with the output disparity but I just could not get the neck pickup dialed in to a point where I was totally happy (even after it "settled" for 3-4 weeks). It always just felt a little too laid back, and as odd as this sounds, it was a little too detailed (some very minor fret buzz that I could previously only hear unplugged became very apparent, for example). So, I swapped an A4 in the neck and after a few days of tweaking, I arrived at a very happy place! Unfortunately, at this point, the output was unbalanced again. I just could not get both pickups adjusted to balance one another AND to sound great.

I thought about giving an A8 a shot in the bridge (contrary to my intuition, as I do lean more toward driven vintage rock tones) but I just happened to stumble across a good deal on a used set of SD '59s and I figured that I might be starting in a happier place here with the greater winding offset between bridge and neck (~700 Ohm).

So now, here is my question for those of you who have experience with both of these pickups. Is it worth revisiting the A3 or do you think I'll have largely the same experience I had with the '57 Classics? I don't often see posts mentioning the A4/UOA5 combo so that makes me wonder if A3/UOA5 or A4/A8 would be a better staring point. I'm not opposed to trying out all combos, just trying to figure out the most sensible place to start. FWIW, I have polished A2 (stock '57 mags), polished A3, polished A4, RC A4, UOA5, and RC A8 mags on hand.

Thanks!

 

[Demanic]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

A4 neck seems to pair well with an A8 bridge. It would be a good place to start.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

I'm not a big '59 fan, at least with the A5 mags.

The neck with an A4 is a reasonable choice, even an A2 sounds nice if you like it a little softer sounding (tone wise not volume wise).

I like an A8 in the bridge pup. It gives it more oomph, like a bridge pup ought to have...more mids and a bit more output.

 

[haas]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Thanks for the replies! It sounds like I really should give the A8 a shot. I was a little hesitant after reading that it has an "aggressive" character (I tend to dislike hot pickups). I do like the tone/feel of A4 better than A2 in the neck, at least in the '57 Classics that are currently installed. I seem to prefer a more immediate attack from the pickups. All my amps have a tube rectifier and I usually run a compressor, so I'm already getting a bit of sag/sponginess elsewhere in my signal chain.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

my "Plus" pickup only has an extra 200 Ohms of winding (7.8K neck vs 8.0K bridge).

So, it's not a "Plus". It's a plain '57 Classic.

I just happened to stumble across a good deal on a used set of SD '59s and I figured that I might be starting in a happier place here with the greater winding offset between bridge and neck (~700 Ohm). Is it worth revisiting the A3 or do you think I'll have largely the same experience I had with the '57 Classics?

Absolutely! '59s are NOT as the '57 Classics at all.

An A3/UOA5 modded '59 set is a great-sounding one for Vintage, harmonic-complex tones when clarity and articulation are a must. However, an A4/A8 modded '59 set you can literally cover all types of music, from the softest to the hardest with no problem, specially if you make good use of the volume and tone controls on the guitar.

HTH,

 

[AlexR]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

^ Yep, you got 2 57 classics, not a plus.

The 59 I had good luck with an A2 in the bridge and UOA5 in the neck......this was in a semihollow so take that with a grain of salt given you have a different guitar.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

I really should give the A8 a shot. I was a little hesitant after reading that it has an "aggressive" character (I tend to dislike hot pickups)

Putting an A8 into a '59 will NOT make it a "hot pickup". Yes, it WILL make it have a more aggressive character than a '59 with any other alnico magnet. We're talking relative subtleties here, we're not giving it an extra 600 mv output or an extra 7k ohms resistance.

 

[haas]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

The thing about the bridge '57 is that its sticker does actually indicate that it's a Plus (it says "57 + Classic" and the neck pickup's sticker just says "57 Classic") and Gibson's spec sheet for this particular LP lists the 57/57+ combo. Of course, it is possible that a labelling error occurred or that Gibson's tolerances for winding are simply atrocious. Either way, I'd expect to see a bigger difference in DC resistance between the two (and yes, I measured them both out of the circuit).

Thanks again for the suggestions, everybody!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Typical C+ is about 8.7K. Thats about 5-600 turns of wire difference there - certainly not an easy mistake to make during winding, especially as it would have had to be both coils on separate machines being way underwound during a machine run for a batch of another pickup.......then somehow paired together.

 

[haas]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Typical C+ is about 8.7K. Thats about 5-600 turns of wire difference there - certainly not an easy mistake to make during winding, especially as it would have had to be both coils on separate machines being way underwound during a machine run for a batch of another pickup.......then somehow paired together.

Yeah, I've read anecdotal reports of these pickups being all over the map but mine is so low that I have to suspect it got mislabeled. Thankfully, the '59s I received measure 7.48K and 8.13K.

 

[haas]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

The '59s arrived the other day and I figured that I'd start with the A3/UOA5 combo. I installed those magnets and I figured that while they were "settling", I could try the A8 in my existing bridge pickup (labeled '57+, possibly just a '57 as discussed above). The A8 bumped the output noticeably compared to the UOA5 and the pickups are now better matched in terms of output (I still have the A4 in the neck '57). I'll spend a little more time tweaking it before I move on to the '59s but my initial impression is that I think I liked the tone of the UOA5 ever-so-slightly better. The EQ seemed to have more lower-mids and there was a little more texture to the overdriven tones. Still, the A8/'57 is very usable, and it's probably the best match for the '57/A4 in the neck (my favorite mag in that position with the '57). Finally, I must say that the middle pickup switch position (neck + bridge) is simply wonderful with this combo- something that LtKojack has told us a time or two in the past. :beerchug:

I'll report back after I've gone through some experiments with the '59s.

 

[Demanic]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

The '59s arrived the other day and I figured that I'd start with the A3/UOA5 combo. I installed those magnets and I figured that while they were "settling", I could try the A8 in my existing bridge pickup (labeled '57+, possibly just a '57 as discussed above). The A8 bumped the output noticeably compared to the UOA5 and the pickups are now better matched in terms of output (I still have the A4 in the neck '57). I'll spend a little more time tweaking it before I move on to the '59s but my initial impression is that I think I liked the tone of the UOA5 ever-so-slightly better. The EQ seemed to have more lower-mids and there was a little more texture to the overdriven tones. Still, the A8/'57 is very usable, and it's probably the best match for the '57/A4 in the neck (my favorite mag in that position with the '57). Finally, I must say that the middle pickup switch position (neck + bridge) is simply wonderful with this combo- something that LtKojack has told us a time or two in the past. :beerchug:

I'll report back after I've gone through some experiments with the '59s.

Once again, A4/A8 in a pair of pickups with proportionally similar winds will usually give good results.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Once again, A4/A8 in a pair of pickups with proportionally similar winds will usually give good results.

Or an A4/UOA5.

 

[Red_Label]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Dayummm... I applaud your scientific-experimenter spirit! Sounds like a lot of work to me. I can't stand the mushiness of the 57 Classics in my LP Standard... so I just ordered a set of Fralin Pure PAFs (which I have heard in another LP and loved). If I really like 'em once I put them in my LP, I'll call it good and ride off into the sunset. I've always been a "set-it and forget-it RONCO" kind of a guy. Just want to spend as much time playing as possible, as opposed to fiddling with things. But like I said, I do applaud you pioneers who have the patience and the inquisitiveness to do all of this experimenting. Just makes more info and options for those of us less experimentally-inclined. :18:

 

[haas]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Following up on this thread... As I mentioned above, I started with the A3/UOA5 combo in the '59s. Once I got each of the pickups dialed in, they sounded great- better than the '57s, in my opinion (better clarity in both the neck and bridge). The A3 '59n in particular was very unique. There was a certain chime and "sweetness" for lack of a better word that I don't think I've ever heard in a neck humbucker.

The only thing that bugged me about the A3/UOA5 combo is that compared to the '59b, the '59n sounded a bit scooped and spongy feeling. This could be beneficial if you like a lot of contrast between your neck and bridge pickups but I've always struggled with such an arrangement (I've never gotten along with HSS Strats, for example). So, I decided to give the A4 a shot in the '59n, hoping to get some more mids and a slightly more immediate/stiff attack, with the neck position naturally having a more "bouncy" sound than the bridge.

The result? WOW! This is exactly what I wanted from this guitar. It's funny that this is the combo I ended up liking best in the '57s as well but now that I'm using a proper neck/bridge set, I don't have the output imbalance when the pickups are adjusted for the best tone. I'm also 100% sold on the '59s over the '57s.

As for the A3 '59n... There was something really special about that combo and I'd really like to give it a shot another day, in another guitar. Maybe in a guitar that I'll be using for more clean tones (this LP is my all-arounder) with an A2 '59b.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

The UOA5 '59B/A4 '59N should be a production set. This should have been the 'Vintage Blues' set.

 

[dkal24]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

I was wondering if you tried the original A5 mags in the 59's or did you immediately swap? I have a stock 59n in one of my LP's and it's got killer tone. I usually opt for A2 mags in my neck pups but the A5 is working great for now. It has a wonderful crispy, punchy tone. Love it.

 

[haas]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

I was wondering if you tried the original A5 mags in the 59's or did you immediately swap? I have a stock 59n in one of my LP's and it's got killer tone. I usually opt for A2 mags in my neck pups but the A5 is working great for now. It has a wonderful crispy, punchy tone. Love it.

I immediately made the swap. I bought these pickups used and had to change the covers on them anyway, so I figured I'd play with magnets before putting the nickel covers on. Almost without exception, I've wished every neck humbucker I've ever played had been a little closer in EQ to the bridge. I'm still really happy with the A4. I know people sometimes describe the '59N as "boomy" and even with the A4, I can attest that it was boomy when adjusted too close to the strings. I have it almost flush with the mounting ring and I raised the polepieces to compensate. No boominess whatsoever now!

All that being said, if you're happy with your stock '59N, there's nothing wrong with that! If you're at all curious what else might be hiding in your pickup though, the magnet swap is a quick and easy way to find out (especially if you're dealing with an uncovered pickup).

 

[AR999]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

Hello all,

I'm new to the SD Forum and about two weeks late to this discussion, but I have a quick question.. When do you quit with the magnet swaps in your '57 Classic and just say this pickup is not going to work for me? I recently bought a 2012 ES 335 with '57 Classics in both positions, the neck doesn't bother me as I am about a 99% bridge user, hence the problem I hate the '57 in the bridge, now I must admit at the moment I'm being "frugal :crazy:" with money due to the guitar purchase, thus the foray into the magnet swaps.. I pulled out the A2 (which I personally do not get along with) tried an Alnico 3, 4, and current have a rough A5 in there right now, it's the best so far, but it's still not doing it for me.. I have an A8 on the way, but is it worth the time to even do this swap or am I kidding myself and just need a different pickup altogether? I think I probably know what your answer might be:disappoin , but sometimes you need to hear it from someone else. :butkick:

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Magnet swapping experiences with SD '59s vs. '57 Classics

I am about a 99% bridge user

In my 30+ years of pro career, I've found myself playing cleans either on both p'ups or the neck alone 90% of the time.

So I wonder, WHAT exactly do you play? If you don't give any clue, it's going to be very difficult to even try an educated guess...

HTH,