making cheap guitars awesome
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LesStrat
Reining PunLowered
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
The forum "scientists" love to throw out the blind test argument as proof that the components don't matter, yet they refuse to acknowledge the fact that the average guitarist can readily pick out the tone of the major guitar models without seeing them.
They also ignore the the fact that certain pickups tend to work better with specific other components.
The forum "scientists" love to throw out the blind test argument as proof that the components don't matter, yet they refuse to acknowledge the fact that the average guitarist can readily pick out the tone of the major guitar models without seeing them.
They also ignore the the fact that certain pickups tend to work better with specific other components.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
I wonder how many of the forum "scientists" have actually played guitar in a professional setting. Some of them are akin to the neighbor that insists on giving you contracting advice because he owns a hammer and goes to Home Depot once a month.
I wonder how many of the forum "scientists" have actually played guitar in a professional setting. Some of them are akin to the neighbor that insists on giving you contracting advice because he owns a hammer and goes to Home Depot once a month.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Do you actually read posts all the way through before responding? I did not even use MIA in the same paragraph as the palm readings. Again, you are completely missing the point. You are very narrow minded and your obstinate responses are proof of such. Rather than just saying something like "that has not been my experience" you argue in a very illogical way. And I am not alone in this criticism.
One can disagree with people with grace and tact. Your stubborn arguments that take things out of context makes you come across as an internet troll. This in turns discredits any opinion you give. No big deal to me as its the internet and trolls have been roaming the internet for years. The SD Forum more than likely does not want a troll making posts regularly as it could make the Company look bad/turn away someone who is legitimately looking for advice.
For example, no where did I liken Palm Readings to MIA. How you drew that comparison I do not know--wait I do, the past posts show that you do not quote people for what they said. Rather, you pick out a very specific phrase that you extrapolate to the extreme. You are not using context clues whatsoever and have the view that its your way or the highway. In the example of the Palm Readings, I was showing how Palm Readings have value to some people--there would not be any palm readers if there was not a market for them. You shouldn't say Palm Readings are worthless as a fact when people believe in those things just like people of faith believe in prayer. So in respect to no religious topics allowed we should be careful criticizing something that could potentially be religious.
You do not like the word choice I used; however, to "refute" it you ignored both common sense as well as the context of the sentence and paragraph in which the word was used. This further points to you being an internet troll rather than someone wanting to add to the discussion. You can post whatever you like but I will not be responding to you again as it is pointless to the original post, which in my opinion has been discussed pretty thoroughly. Cheers!
Do you actually read posts all the way through before responding? I did not even use MIA in the same paragraph as the palm readings. Again, you are completely missing the point. You are very narrow minded and your obstinate responses are proof of such. Rather than just saying something like "that has not been my experience" you argue in a very illogical way. And I am not alone in this criticism.
One can disagree with people with grace and tact. Your stubborn arguments that take things out of context makes you come across as an internet troll. This in turns discredits any opinion you give. No big deal to me as its the internet and trolls have been roaming the internet for years. The SD Forum more than likely does not want a troll making posts regularly as it could make the Company look bad/turn away someone who is legitimately looking for advice.
For example, no where did I liken Palm Readings to MIA. How you drew that comparison I do not know--wait I do, the past posts show that you do not quote people for what they said. Rather, you pick out a very specific phrase that you extrapolate to the extreme. You are not using context clues whatsoever and have the view that its your way or the highway. In the example of the Palm Readings, I was showing how Palm Readings have value to some people--there would not be any palm readers if there was not a market for them. You shouldn't say Palm Readings are worthless as a fact when people believe in those things just like people of faith believe in prayer. So in respect to no religious topics allowed we should be careful criticizing something that could potentially be religious.
You do not like the word choice I used; however, to "refute" it you ignored both common sense as well as the context of the sentence and paragraph in which the word was used. This further points to you being an internet troll rather than someone wanting to add to the discussion. You can post whatever you like but I will not be responding to you again as it is pointless to the original post, which in my opinion has been discussed pretty thoroughly. Cheers!
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
One problem I have with custom builds and heavily modified cheap guitars is that in my experience, come resale time, I'm probably not going to get back anything close to what I've invested in time and money. For some people, it's not a problem; for me it is.
I've only one guitar that I've modified irreversibly: a Music Man Sabre II. While on a vacation, I bought it from a luthier in SoCal. He'd bought parts from Music Man's GOOB auction, and he built me the guitar from the parts he had on hand. I later took the guitar to Mike Lull in Bellevue, Washington, and Mike routed it and added a third Music Man pickup--making it more strat like. It looks factory, and the work he did and the final outcome totally exceeded my expectations. On some of my other guitars I've done rewiring with RS Kits or pickups, Schaller Strap Locks, or even LW Aluminum tailpieces on some of my Les Pauls, but nothing irreversible.
And I tend to not buy guitars that are irreversibly modified, either. Many of these so-called "upgrades" people make aren't upgrades to me, and some are down-right...er, strange. I have been playing for almost 50 years; I have a pretty good idea of what I like--what works for me and what doesn't. So it doesn't make much sense to me to buy something that is going to frustrate me--I'd rather have something that puts a smile on my face, and I'm willing to pay for that.
If you're happy playing inexpensive guitars, that fine. I love finding a "diamond in the rough", and I have a few that I really cherish. But don't knock me for buying some really nice, and relatively expensive guitars. They are worth it to me.
Bill
One problem I have with custom builds and heavily modified cheap guitars is that in my experience, come resale time, I'm probably not going to get back anything close to what I've invested in time and money. For some people, it's not a problem; for me it is.
I've only one guitar that I've modified irreversibly: a Music Man Sabre II. While on a vacation, I bought it from a luthier in SoCal. He'd bought parts from Music Man's GOOB auction, and he built me the guitar from the parts he had on hand. I later took the guitar to Mike Lull in Bellevue, Washington, and Mike routed it and added a third Music Man pickup--making it more strat like. It looks factory, and the work he did and the final outcome totally exceeded my expectations. On some of my other guitars I've done rewiring with RS Kits or pickups, Schaller Strap Locks, or even LW Aluminum tailpieces on some of my Les Pauls, but nothing irreversible.
And I tend to not buy guitars that are irreversibly modified, either. Many of these so-called "upgrades" people make aren't upgrades to me, and some are down-right...er, strange. I have been playing for almost 50 years; I have a pretty good idea of what I like--what works for me and what doesn't. So it doesn't make much sense to me to buy something that is going to frustrate me--I'd rather have something that puts a smile on my face, and I'm willing to pay for that.
If you're happy playing inexpensive guitars, that fine. I love finding a "diamond in the rough", and I have a few that I really cherish. But don't knock me for buying some really nice, and relatively expensive guitars. They are worth it to me.
Bill
DreX
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
I think that were strictly true, you would not act so upset by what I had written. If something is illogical, you simply point out the logical flaw, and move on. When you get upset, and otherwise attempt to derail the discourse, it just makes me think you're avoiding having to cede the point.
I'm getting tired of having to remind you what has already been said, you said:
"There is no value in a palm reading to YOU but there is to others. People believe in palm readings, horoscopes and similar things. While I don't and obviously you don't either, it is incorrect to say it has no value"
since you don't dispute that there's a perceived value equivalence between guitars and palm readings, it can be rephrased like this:
"There is no value in a [PREMIUM AMERICAN MADE GUITAR] to YOU but there is to others."
This is the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic value. Palm reading only has extrinsic value, meaning it's value exists solely in the mind of the person paying for the service. To say that the appeal of a premium American made guitar is extrinsic is to say essentially that any amount extra you pay for one is wasted because all you would have had to do is will yourself like appreciate a less expensive guitar, and you would have ended up in the same place for less money. There are no objective measures that demonstrate that the typical $500 import guitar is in any way inferior to similar American crafted guitars of similar model. All the difference exist in the realm of preference. One example of an objective benefit to a domestic premium might be the Min-e-tune that Gibson is slapping on their Les Pauls, it will retune your guitar faster than you could by hand, but then again, we've seen how much love the Min-e-tune has received from the purists.
I think that were strictly true, you would not act so upset by what I had written. If something is illogical, you simply point out the logical flaw, and move on. When you get upset, and otherwise attempt to derail the discourse, it just makes me think you're avoiding having to cede the point.
One can disagree with people with grace and tact. Your stubborn arguments that take things out of context makes you come across as an internet troll. This in turns discredits any opinion you give. No big deal to me as its the internet and trolls have been roaming the internet for years. The SD Forum more than likely does not want a troll making posts regularly as it could make the Company look bad/turn away someone who is legitimately looking for advice.
For example, no where did I liken Palm Readings to MIA. How you drew that comparison I do not know--wait I do, the past posts show that you do not quote people for what they said. Rather, you pick out a very specific phrase that you extrapolate to the extreme. You are not using context clues whatsoever and have the view that its your way or the highway. In the example of the Palm Readings, I was showing how Palm Readings have value to some people--there would not be any palm readers if there was not a market for them. You shouldn't say Palm Readings are worthless as a fact when people believe in those things just like people of faith believe in prayer. So in respect to no religious topics allowed we should be careful criticizing something that could potentially be religious.
You do not like the word choice I used; however, to "refute" it you ignored both common sense as well as the context of the sentence and paragraph in which the word was used. This further points to you being an internet troll rather than someone wanting to add to the discussion. You can post whatever you like but I will not be responding to you again as it is pointless to the original post, which in my opinion has been discussed pretty thoroughly. Cheers!
I'm getting tired of having to remind you what has already been said, you said:
"There is no value in a palm reading to YOU but there is to others. People believe in palm readings, horoscopes and similar things. While I don't and obviously you don't either, it is incorrect to say it has no value"
since you don't dispute that there's a perceived value equivalence between guitars and palm readings, it can be rephrased like this:
"There is no value in a [PREMIUM AMERICAN MADE GUITAR] to YOU but there is to others."
This is the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic value. Palm reading only has extrinsic value, meaning it's value exists solely in the mind of the person paying for the service. To say that the appeal of a premium American made guitar is extrinsic is to say essentially that any amount extra you pay for one is wasted because all you would have had to do is will yourself like appreciate a less expensive guitar, and you would have ended up in the same place for less money. There are no objective measures that demonstrate that the typical $500 import guitar is in any way inferior to similar American crafted guitars of similar model. All the difference exist in the realm of preference. One example of an objective benefit to a domestic premium might be the Min-e-tune that Gibson is slapping on their Les Pauls, it will retune your guitar faster than you could by hand, but then again, we've seen how much love the Min-e-tune has received from the purists.
DreX
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
If you buy a guitar thinking about how the next owner will perceive it, then it was never truly your guitar. You were just borrowing their guitar the whole time.
If you buy a guitar thinking about how the next owner will perceive it, then it was never truly your guitar. You were just borrowing their guitar the whole time.
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
LOL! Well, if I put my money down on it, I'm the owner.
I guess at my age, while I can say that I own them, the reality is that I will probably not outlive the usefulness of any of the guitars I currently own. I look at it as stewardship.
It will be one hell of an estate sale, that's for sure!
Bill
LOL! Well, if I put my money down on it, I'm the owner.
I guess at my age, while I can say that I own them, the reality is that I will probably not outlive the usefulness of any of the guitars I currently own. I look at it as stewardship.
It will be one hell of an estate sale, that's for sure!
Bill
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ExplorersRock
X-Files Duckbucker
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
What the hell is this, the "Zen of Guitar Buying"? Whether you're trying to come off as sounding practical or wise you failed at both. This like some 7tth grade view of the world, trying to "transcend" the physical to some higher plane. It's like you think you sound like some kind of wise guru enlightening the foolish. What you really sound like is some college freshman who has studied one semester of psychology and now believes he's an expert and needs to "correct" everyone because he knows better. But whatever. Go ahead DreX. Tell us how we're idiots for buying MIA when you buy Marshall amps while I play a Carvin. Because I'm not willing to pay for the name like you are.
What the hell is this, the "Zen of Guitar Buying"? Whether you're trying to come off as sounding practical or wise you failed at both. This like some 7tth grade view of the world, trying to "transcend" the physical to some higher plane. It's like you think you sound like some kind of wise guru enlightening the foolish. What you really sound like is some college freshman who has studied one semester of psychology and now believes he's an expert and needs to "correct" everyone because he knows better. But whatever. Go ahead DreX. Tell us how we're idiots for buying MIA when you buy Marshall amps while I play a Carvin. Because I'm not willing to pay for the name like you are.
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
+1 to this. Nah, +1000 to this. A Traynor always suited me fine in the States, I have never owned a full or half stack even. Plenty of gigs with Traynors under my belt though. Owning a Marshall TSL definitely kinda throws all his own arguments under his own bus.
+1 to this. Nah, +1000 to this. A Traynor always suited me fine in the States, I have never owned a full or half stack even. Plenty of gigs with Traynors under my belt though. Owning a Marshall TSL definitely kinda throws all his own arguments under his own bus.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
While I love my $500 imports there is no way to compare them to my Les Paul Traditional Pro. We are talking a whole different class of instrument, right down to the flame maple top. I have plenty of guitars that have tones similar to a Les Paul. Only my Les Paul truly sounds like a Les Paul. As far as objective measures go a $2000 Gibson will have great wiring through, no flimsy hardware, bargain plastic wire and cheap ceramic caps.
While I love my $500 imports there is no way to compare them to my Les Paul Traditional Pro. We are talking a whole different class of instrument, right down to the flame maple top. I have plenty of guitars that have tones similar to a Les Paul. Only my Les Paul truly sounds like a Les Paul. As far as objective measures go a $2000 Gibson will have great wiring through, no flimsy hardware, bargain plastic wire and cheap ceramic caps.
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DreX
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
If you buy a guitar and refuse to mod it because it decreases the value, them you're really more of a middle man. Take Guitar Center for example, they take in inventory, and refuse to modify that inventory, going so far as to leave it in the box, unwrapped, in order to preserve it's sale price. The only difference between you and Guitar Center is the degree to which you're willing to degrade your inventory, and thus the eventual sale price. This is true any and every time you buy something with the intention of resale, and not intending to give it away, or run it in to the ground.
If you buy a guitar and refuse to mod it because it decreases the value, them you're really more of a middle man. Take Guitar Center for example, they take in inventory, and refuse to modify that inventory, going so far as to leave it in the box, unwrapped, in order to preserve it's sale price. The only difference between you and Guitar Center is the degree to which you're willing to degrade your inventory, and thus the eventual sale price. This is true any and every time you buy something with the intention of resale, and not intending to give it away, or run it in to the ground.
verbotenco
New member
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
When you order a pizza do you complain the ingredients only cost $1?
When you order a pizza do you complain the ingredients only cost $1?
DreX
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
If the Gibson Guitar Corporation made pizza, it would cost $50 a pie. Nobody evenly distributes that cheese and those toppings as well as Gibson Guitar Corporation does in the good ol' U S of A. The real magic is in how they allow the dough to rise just so.
If the Gibson Guitar Corporation made pizza, it would cost $50 a pie. Nobody evenly distributes that cheese and those toppings as well as Gibson Guitar Corporation does in the good ol' U S of A. The real magic is in how they allow the dough to rise just so.
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verbotenco
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Yup. Agree. Because guitarists are in general not very bright/ intelligent. That's why they invent peculiar terms such as warm, shrill, fat, thin, ballsy, ice picky, etc.etc. It's all subjective. What sounds good today might sound like **** tomorrow after you have a fight with your wife/ boss/ whatever.
There is a video on YouTube of some dumb **** claiming his Dean Dave Mustaine model is capable of producing Dave's tone in Rust in Peace. WTF?!! Dave Mustaine didn't even endorse Dean in 1990, it was Jackson. That's how clueless this species of human being is.
Yup. Agree. Because guitarists are in general not very bright/ intelligent. That's why they invent peculiar terms such as warm, shrill, fat, thin, ballsy, ice picky, etc.etc. It's all subjective. What sounds good today might sound like **** tomorrow after you have a fight with your wife/ boss/ whatever.
There is a video on YouTube of some dumb **** claiming his Dean Dave Mustaine model is capable of producing Dave's tone in Rust in Peace. WTF?!! Dave Mustaine didn't even endorse Dean in 1990, it was Jackson. That's how clueless this species of human being is.
verbotenco
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
So you have no problem giving Gibson extra 1300 dollars for that meticulous wiring and sturdy plastic parts?
So you have no problem giving Gibson extra 1300 dollars for that meticulous wiring and sturdy plastic parts?
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