making cheap guitars awesome

[voggin]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I meant that you can't cite a reference to prove your case as of this moment.

you should have gotten a job with the communications department in the Bush administration if you honestly believe that made any sense.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

you should have gotten a job with the communications department in the Bush administration if you honestly believe that made any sense.

take it one word at a time.

 

[kramersteen]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

take it one word at a time.

Most people start a sentence with a capital.

Take it one word at a time.

''I'' fixed so you know what i am talking about.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Just because something is subjective doesn't make it impossible to prove. Mens rea is subjective, yet lots of people get convicted of murder or manslaughter, depending on which state of mind is proven.

I went back and read the original post I responded to again, and it actually is literally and wholly unprovable due to it's being subjective, let me refresh your memory:

The handmade Waynes (by the Wayne Charvel) that I've played sounded heads and tails better than our MIJ Charvels (better sustain, better response, more articulate notes, etc) and I was able to get the best harmonics out of the Waynes than any guitar I've ever played.

The operative adjectives are subjective, and the source of the information is his own opinion. Bolded for emphasis.

 

[voggin]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I went back and read the original post I responded to again, and it actually is literally and wholly unprovable due to it's being subjective, let me refresh your memory:



The operative adjectives are subjective, and the source of the information is his own opinion. Bolded for emphasis.

You really should seek help.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

You like to call people out for minor, semantic mistakes, but then don't like to be called out yourself, is that about right?

What you might not want to recognize is that these fine details and choices or words are not only on topic, but of great importance. When forum member X says "premium guitars are better because I personally observed their superiority", then the obvious question to me the curious guitar buyer is, will I observe the same thing as X? Are the qualities that you believe made the guitar superior something that everyone would agree on, or only some people? Hundreds if not thousands of dollars can end up misspent mistaking cost for quality.

 

[voggin]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

You like to call people out for minor, semantic mistakes, but then don't like to be called out yourself, is that about right?

I am mortally wounded! Tell my family I love them!

Some people think Johnny Walker Red is the best whisky in the world, and think those who drink Oban are just suckers who have bought into media hype.

The Johnny Red crowd are very lucky people. They buy their hooch at 15 bucks a bottle and laugh at the single malt crowd.

It's a good feeling to know better than everyone else

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

It's a good feeling to know better than everyone else

It's a good feeling knowing that you've reduced yourself to slinging insults and ... whatever the rest of that was.

 

[greekdude]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Drex, you have a point, if you guys could discuss this in person while playing your guitars none of the misunderstandings would happen. Internet is terribly slow to truly propagate the true thoughts and feelings of the humans involved. Add to this the cultural/educational and language barriers (like my case) and this ends up in Babel.

 

[Securb]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

The operative adjectives are subjective, and the source of the information is his own opinion. Bolded for emphasis.

This adds nothing to the conversation. The only thing you are achieving here is further fanning the flames of this dumpster fire. Do you keep track of the threads you get closed? It that your ultimate goal on these forums? I only ask because the statement above has zero to do with music or guitars.

 

[verbotenco]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

well, if you like the guitar even if new it was 200 bucks it totally worths putting 1000 bucks in parts and work, or it could also be just for sake of fun, like what some guys had been doing with those hello kitty strats or like aceman's john deer and (the orange one i don't remember the grapihcs) deans

I nominate this as the most dumbass post of the year (and it's still February). So, it is totally worth the effort to put down a thousand bucks into a piece of **** Squier in order to turn it into a 57 American Vintage Reissue knock-off, when you can get the real AVRI for about the same amount of money?

Just FYI, at the end of the day, a piece of **** is still a piece of ****, regardless of how much cash and time and sweat you have invest in it in order to hot rod it. A Honda will always be a Honda, even if you have installed a Ferrari engine under the trunk, it is still NOT a Ferrari.

 

[verbotenco]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

To Drex:

I agree with you with regard to the 'unprovable' thing. Most of expensive guitars are expensive because of the labor and brand equity. If you market something with high price tag people will believe it must be high quality. And the CNC machine doesn't give a **** where it operates and who operates it. It's just American people want more money to do the same thing that Mexicans and Chinese would do for a fraction of the salary.

Anybody who claims he/ she has golden ears and can differentiate between the tone of a brazilian rosewood, maple, mahogany is day dreaming. If you challenge them to take a blind test, they will become shy all of the sudden, cause it is all in your mind.

If you have sunked in a thousand bucks into a Les Paul, you definitely want it to sound better, so you subliminally condition your mind that it sounds better, while there are tons of variables, from pickups, amps, cables, effects, even your mood, and the time of the day.

 

[greekdude]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Verbotenco, in general I agree with you, but

Anybody who claims he/ she has golden ears and can differentiate between the tone of a brazilian rosewood, maple, mahogany is day dreaming. If you challenge them to take a blind test, they will become shy all of the sudden, cause it is all in your mind.

maybe ppl could not do it by ear in a blind test, but do the blind test to the player, and things start to change, he can immediately feel the tone dying at fret X in configuration (woods/construction) Y, and the tone thriving full of harmonics in the same fret and configuration Y2. I come from an elec eng. background, tried to stand by the accepted truth among elec engineers (that pups just sense vibration of the strings, woods do not matter), but lately I have turned 180 degrees : woods do matter, and are influencing the way the string moves, hence the difference in sound.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

It's just guitar talk, I'm not keeping an agreement score. Should I pretend to agree with a few posts to even out the balance?



The fact that a knock off Strat is the most he can afford in no way implies that there must be shortcomings with that guitar. The fact that they would gig with a knock off Strat and not have the audience or whoever think any less of their performance, or even the appearance of their instrument, just goes to undermine the necessity of the "Rolls Royce" guitars.



The problem is that this isn't provable, it's subjective experience. For all I know, there mere fact that you expect an expensive guitar to sound better could heavily influence your estimation. What did Wayne do specifically to ensure that their domestics would sound better than the MIJ, and is whatever they did not something you could do yourself to the MIJ? If they pick better wood, how do they determine how "good" a board of wood is before it's a fully made and testable guitar?



Acoustics are a different subject matter, different price points, etc.

Its ok man, take a chill pill, the "lol" signifies this is not a heated debate.

The knock off Strat did not sound very good but it was all he could afford. He wanted a nicer guitar but diapers come before gear. As far as that audience was concerned they could care less if he was using a guitar, keyboard, or pre-recording BUT I don't see how that undermines anything. I would rather gig with a shield painted guitar that doesn't make a ton of noise by just being plugged in. It doesn't undermine the personal preference of wanting a nicer instrument for its better performance–thats the beauty of a free market.

Have you ever played a Wayne? My dad had several Charvels that were Japanese made–incredible guitars. However, not a one of them had the attention to detail that the Waynes had. The action was better, the intonation was better, the electronics were better, the harmonics and pinch harmonics were much more clear and loud, etc. The materials used were superior and the hardware was definitely superior. Plugged in the Waynes were silent while the Charvels were a tad noisy.

Again, have you played a Wayne? Have you ever played a Martin HD 28? Have you played these side by side to a cheaper imitation?

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

To Drex:

I agree with you with regard to the 'unprovable' thing. Most of expensive guitars are expensive because of the labor and brand equity. If you market something with high price tag people will believe it must be high quality. And the CNC machine doesn't give a **** where it operates and who operates it. It's just American people want more money to do the same thing that Mexicans and Chinese would do for a fraction of the salary.

Anybody who claims he/ she has golden ears and can differentiate between the tone of a brazilian rosewood, maple, mahogany is day dreaming. If you challenge them to take a blind test, they will become shy all of the sudden, cause it is all in your mind.

If you have sunked in a thousand bucks into a Les Paul, you definitely want it to sound better, so you subliminally condition your mind that it sounds better, while there are tons of variables, from pickups, amps, cables, effects, even your mood, and the time of the day.

Nope, not day dreaming. Not to be rude, but you would be tone deaf to say there is no difference in tone from maple and mahogany and rosewood...like you have no ears man.

Yes, a CNC machine cuts the same in the USA as in China; however, garbage in garbage out. The Chinese products are well known for being cheap and lack quality (I've seen some improvements in quality but not much.) For example, just run your hand down the sides of a Wayne Strat and a cheap Chinese Strat–every MIM and Asian Strat I've played were not smooth and the sides of the frets were not leveled to the neck.

You don't understand economics to say Americans "want" more to do the same thing. Americans and Japanese have quality control that the Mexicans (again, I've seen some improvements on this but not near the Americans) and Chinese don't have. Also, labor in Mexico and China is cheaper for multiple reasons. Do the Chinese and Mexicans have the tax system the US has? Do they have labor laws? Minimum Wage? OSHA? etc...

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Have you ever played a Wayne? My dad had several Charvels that were Japanese made–incredible guitars. However, not a one of them had the attention to detail that the Waynes had. The action was better, the intonation was better, the electronics were better, the harmonics and pinch harmonics were much more clear and loud, etc. The materials used were superior and the hardware was definitely superior. Plugged in the Waynes were silent while the Charvels were a tad noisy. ?

Action, intonation, and electronics are all stuff I can adjust to my taste. The silence/noisy stuff can be take care of by proper shielding and correct assembly of the electronics. This isn't really something that's important to have from a new guitar. On a Floyded guitar the only real hardware that's important to tone is the nut and bridge. An OFR and locking nut is an OFR with locking nut isn't it?

Really, the only thing that I think you could argue would be 'better' would be the wood . . . . but wood is pretty highly variable from any guitar to another.


*Disclaimer . . . I've never played a Wayne guitar, and have a US made Charvel Pro Mod that I've rewired, shielded, and set the action/intonation perfectly on.

 

[Securb]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I love analogies, I also love a great pair of jeans. The way I see my Asian import guitars is like a pair of Levis. A premium, quality product with brand recognition that excels at providing style and functionality. However, every once in a while I need to put on an expensive suit. That suit is my Gibsons, Parker and other high end guitars. When it comes to function the Levis and the suit are the same. However the suit feels better, the material is superior and softer on my body. There is a confidence that comes along with a nice suit. The workmanship is top notch and you know you will enjoy the suit for years to come. You will not be pulling at threads like you would on a cheap suit. Sure your Levis or bargain brand Men's Warehouse suit will keep you just as warm as an expensive suit. However at the end of the day I bought the suit for me, not you. I don't need you comments or approval.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Action, intonation, and electronics are all stuff I can adjust to my taste. The silence/noisy stuff can be take care of by proper shielding and correct assembly of the electronics. This isn't really something that's important to have from a new guitar. On a Floyded guitar the only real hardware that's important to tone is the nut and bridge. An OFR and locking nut is an OFR with locking nut isn't it?

Really, the only thing that I think you could argue would be 'better' would be the wood . . . . but wood is pretty highly variable from any guitar to another.


*Disclaimer . . . I've never played a Wayne guitar, and have a US made Charvel Pro Mod that I've rewired, shielded, and set the action/intonation perfectly on.

Everything you did the the Charvel was already done on the Waynes straight out of the case. And I agree, some of those things can be upgraded/fixed (I spent a ton doing this to MIM and MIJ guitars for years before I started assembling them myself.) The wood choices were pristine and my favorite was one of his "Monster" series which is a natural wood finish. I would say if you can play a brand new Wayne then give it a go and tell me its equivalent to an upgraded Chinese or Mexican Strat .

I love analogies, I also love a great pair of jeans. The way I see my Asian import guitars is like a pair of Levis. A premium, quality product with brand recognition that excels at providing style and functionality. However, every once in a while I need to put on an expensive suit. That suit is my Gibsons, Parker and other high end guitars. When it comes to function the Levis and the suit are the same. However the suit feels better, the material is superior and softer on my body. There is a confidence that comes along with a nice suit. The workmanship is top notch and you know you will enjoy the suit for years to come. You will not be pulling at threads like you would on a cheap suit. Sure your Levis or bargain brand Men's Warehouse suit will keep you just as warm as an expensive suit. However at the end of the day I bought the suit for me, not you. I don't need you comments or approval.

The jean analogy is one I can relate to. The jeans I wear are Rock Republic and Diesel. While at the end of the day there are still "jeans", the material is softer (cheap jeans can be made soft with fabric softeners and multiple washes) and the cut is perfect for my build (cheaper are more one size fits all.) Yes clothes are covering our bodies regardless of the price tag. However, if you want something nicer you usually pay more...at least from my experience

 

[Muffleberry]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I treat my guitars just like I do my jeans. Drill a bunch of holes in them, and put them in the washing machine for a few cycles.

 

[Securb]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I treat my guitars just like I do my jeans. Drill a bunch of holes in them, and put them in the washing machine for a few cycles.