Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

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bluezguy

New member
Happy New Year Folks!

A pair of new Seth Lovers saved my 2013 ES-335 from total destruction. When I rec'vd her (new in 2013), she came with 57 Classics. They were OK but not great. I yanked them immediately and ordered the Seth pair. Even though the Seths don't make her sound like 335s used to, it sure is a remarkable improvement over the 57s.

Understand that I've had 4 ES335 primary gigging axes from 1967 to 2003. They've ALL sounded the same - exactly like in this Freddie King vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdyvPg0c6bI

My last 'real sounding one' was purchased new in 1996. My guess, even though Gibson denies it, is that changes have been made in that particular model's construction, drastically changing the sound of it to suit a certain demigraphic once they moved to Memphis.

Anyways, there's an out of phase sound I hear which was the inherent sound of most 335, 345 and 355 guitars. It is a known fact that the A5 magnet in the 'gold' pickups of the mid to late 60's for the 335 series of guitars were 'flipped' to produce that oop tone.

I just ordered a pair of UOA5 mags when it dawned on me ... jackass, they are unoriented, flipping them would do nothing.
Am I correct??
Sorry, I forgot to mention, the Seths are undergoing magnet experimentation. Lt Kojak mentioned a UOA5 would be great in a Seth. Since I have an A4 in the neck Seth, if I flipped that one, would it still go out of phase with an unoriented mag in the Seth Bridge?
Finally, would there be any advantage to running the UOA5 in both neck & bridge?

Feedback is not a problem. There's lots however, I learned many decades ago how to control it and would be very unhappy without it.
Thanks for reading.
 
Re: Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

bluezguy said:
I just ordered a pair of UOA5 mags when it dawned on me ... jackass, they are unoriented, flipping them would do nothing.
Am I correct??
Click to expand...
No. The correct term for "UnOriented" is "Isotropic". Alnico 2, 3, 4 and UOA5 are all isotropic.And a bar without polarity is NOT magnetic.

To read about the definitions, processes, etc, just digit wiki alnico in google.

HTH,
 
Re: Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

You have 1 guitar that sounds a bit different - and thats about the story.
 
Re: Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

AlexR said:
You have 1 guitar that sounds a bit different - and thats about the story.
Click to expand...

I guess I should've mentioned in my rambling that since 2013 (when I got my 2013), I've done the A/B test at most dealers in Florida who carry these models (I'm retired so I have time to do this:knockedou) and must tell you that 100% of the time, ALL 335s and 345s sound the same - just like mine. The magic of the 335 left the building when Memphis took over in 2000.
I continue trying new ones when they come in.

To report on last night's pup experiment, Lt Kojak was right! The UOA5 is now the magnet of choice for my Seth Bridge. I also did the unthinkable with my Seth neck.
I thought the A4 I stuck in a while ago was there for life. Not So! Being the sound I seek out of my 335 was spit out by T-Tops originally (1967: These T-Tops had the shorter A5 mag), I decided to chop a new A5 down in length by a little less than a quarter inch.
Glory glory halellujah ... It will now remain in the Seth neck instead of the A4 for a while.

Thanks for all yer inputs over the years. This truly is a great forum even though it makes you spend tons of cash on experimentation:banana:

My2013 ES335.jpg
 
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Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

As I understand it the 345 (and others) came mostly with mono but some came with optional stereo varitone - the stereo ones I think were also out wired out of phase. ( I could be wrong)
Varitones were popular in that era as was the use of out of phase switches - which I prefer to magnet flipping as you can decide to have it out of phase or not.
Also the .033 cap on the varitone favoured by BB King sounds a bit like out of phase.

I have a varitone box and with the inductor the 0.033 and .1 caps sound similar to partial and fully out of phase


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Re: Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

vinnie1971 said:
As I understand it the 345 (and others) came mostly with mono but some came with optional stereo varitone - the stereo ones I think were also out wired out of phase. ( I could be wrong)
Varitones were popular in that era as was the use of out of phase switches - which I prefer to magnet flipping as you can decide to have it out of phase or not.
Also the .033 cap on the varitone favoured by BB King sounds a bit like out of phase.

I have a varitone box and with the inductor the 0.033 and .1 caps sound similar to partial and fully out of phase


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Varitone is not the solution. Again, the 335 had the inherent out of phase sound on 4 models I have owned - a 'woody', 'midrangy', 'cocked wah', 'boxy' .... whatever ya wanna call it. Just click that vid link to hear.

I have access to a 70s 345 and 355 with varitones and with the varitone in the bypass position, the guitars both exhibit that oop sound - mildly not wildly. By clicking in the varitone on 2 of the positions, it really brings that oop tone out and into your face - just like the video like in the original post.

May I ask whose varitone box you have? I'd be interested in hearing/possibly buying as I will not be drilling and fitting my 335 with a custom one. I'm diggin' the heck out of what I've found with my flipped mag but it ain't enough. I do thoroughly enjoy the middle position with my pickup combo as it is quite 'steriodily' telecaster like:D:D. Hence, an external box like you mention may satisfy this old, bleeding soul.

EQzz don't do it.
 
Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

bluezguy said:
Varitone is not the solution. Again, the 335 had the inherent out of phase sound on 4 models I have owned - a 'woody', 'midrangy', 'cocked wah', 'boxy' .... whatever ya wanna call it. Just click that vid link to hear.

I have access to a 70s 345 and 355 with varitones and with the varitone in the bypass position, the guitars both exhibit that oop sound - mildly not wildly. By clicking in the varitone on 2 of the positions, it really brings that oop tone out and into your face - just like the video like in the original post.

May I ask whose varitone box you have? I'd be interested in hearing/possibly buying as I will not be drilling and fitting my 335 with a custom one. I'm diggin' the heck out of what I've found with my flipped mag but it ain't enough. I do thoroughly enjoy the middle position with my pickup combo as it is quite 'steriodily' telecaster like:D:D. Hence, an external box like you mention may satisfy this old, bleeding soul.

EQzz don't do it.
Click to expand...

There is an article I read that says the stereo ones are wired out if phase, and the mono ones don't have true bypass so that 100k resistor and inductor are still in circuit affecting tone.

I made my own varitone box.
I have it wired using both coils of the mouser inductor in series giving me 3 Henries inductance.
I have position 1 as Bass cut 0.0033 in series with signal
Then the others are notch filters similar to Gibson:
0.001
0.0033
0.01
0.033
0.1 ( tried the .22 as per Gibson diagram but it sounded terrible hence 0.1)
Using 100k resistor as per Gibson diagram.
True bypass is implemented with a stomp box switch
I also have a circuit reverse switch that swaps input and output as this increases the effect of the notch filter and bass cut, at the expense of volume.

I might have a schematic that I made .... I sent this to someone with better soldering skills than me and he soldered the caps to a 6 way alpha rotary switch which I then used to build a varitone box.


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Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

Here's my schematic
The cap values are :
1 - bass cut 0.0033
2 - 0.001
3 - 0.0033
4 - 0.01
5 - 0.033
6 - 0.1

1a5407e7e47baa0fe5fc881f60f0d72a.jpg



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Re: Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

When i heard the vid, i thought it sounds like T-tops with thin strings. Maybe you would be better off with 2 Jazz necks than with Seths. There is a special sound if you use two equal wound pickups in neck and bridge together, this can't duplicated with with a 'loundness balanced' pair.
 
Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

bluezguy said:
Thanks Vinnie ... OUTSTANDING!
Click to expand...

Here's a demo of my box using a dearmond with filtertron style mini humbuckers and out of phase using the varitone box in the background music before the demo using my home built Fat HSH frankenstrat

Lots of different sounds a bit like cocking a wah pedal in different positions

https://youtu.be/d_CiBYhTXl8


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Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

There's no mistaking in that video that your man reaches for the varitone several times to get different tones....

One day I will get round to a proper demo of my varitone box and play something a bit more musical.

You could make the varitone box and then swap a volume control for a push pull and put out of phase on that. If you want mild out of phase you can use a 0.1 uF cap in signal with the reversed phase going to the hot output - sounds great. Not at all thin.

I have 3 guitars with out of phase switching - I am a real fan of those tones and the classic varitone sounds too. The beauty of the home made varitone box is you can decide what caps. I did have one with 12 notches but they were too similar and the steps not big enough, plus I wanted bass cut as well hence the design above.

Craig Douglas soldered the caps to my rotary switch then all I needed was a box to house it, stomp switch, jacks and an inductor chicken head and a dial. (I nearly used a single coil pickup for an inductor - but it was too big for the box)

Anyway, hope you find the diagram useful.



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Re: Making Seth Lovers Out of Phase?

Hard to know, and it could have been changed after the fact. It does seem like the switch is out of order, though..haha.
 
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