Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

[JeffB]

Found a great setting for Marshall type tones on my Mesa F-50 last night (if you go try one at a store, try this setting). It's not exact of course, but it's really good. Like a modded plexi or 800 without the extra gain and a touch more low end. Kick in the contour on channel 2. Rolled the gain back to anywhere from 9 to 11 o'clock. Bass & Treble at 12 oclock, mids at 3 oclock and Master at 10-11 oclock (using attentuator..normally master on 10 or 11 makes my ears bleed)

Immediately found myself playing Heartbreaker, Back in Black, LaGrange and The Boys are Back in Town with the gain on 9-10.

Cranked the gain to 11 to 12 and out came Murders in the Rue Morgue, Wrathchild, and Phantom of the Opera

The more I play and fool around with this amp, the more impressed I become. However, unlike Marshalls, you cannot go overboard on cranking the poweramp section (or anything else for that matter) with hot pups. There is a sweet spot where the 6L6s really sound awesome, but at if you get above that certain point it's just too much and the sound gets woofy/farty/sloppy. Running the master at 10-11 o clock seems best with the Wolfgang and then I use the power brake to back down the volume a touch. In contrast, the Strat with it's single coils can get a bit more extreme with gain/volume/control settings.

I'm finding moderation with these MESA's is KEY, and prolly thats why I never bought one years ago. I would dial them up like my Marshalls or Laney or Jackson head or whatever, and it would sound like A$$..buzzy, tubby, etc. Set it right and they just sing or crunch with the best of them..no buzz or high end fizzy junk...no sloppy bass, etc.

Could there be a Road King in my future now?

 

[Rainmaker]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Thanks for the info JeffB! I'll keep that in mind, and I'm sure that would be new news for most.

 

[Neeradj]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Mesas can do the Marshall thing, the boost channel on my DC-5 sounds like a 1987X Plexi. Ballsy with a growly low end and that sweet vintage tone. It's about 9/10 dead-on if you'd ask me, still has to go though, with my new amp due in 2 days I just don't have the funds nor space :smack:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

There may be some Mesa that can do the Marshall thing...but those would have to be a model with a circuit called a CATHODE FOLLOWER. I don't know that Mesa actually makes an amp with a cathode follower circuit.

That's 1/2 of a 12ax7 tube that takes its signal from the plate of the preceding 12ax7 in the pre-amp but the tone controls are then connected to the cathode and it is the source of Marshall Crunch. It is copied directly off of the design for the '59 5F6-A Fender Bassman...which also gets that's same glassy crunch. No cathode follower...no crunch. At least not the exact same type of crunch.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

There may be some Mesa that can do the Marshall thing...but those would have to be a model with a circuit called a CATHODE FOLLOWER. I don't know that Mesa actually makes an amp with a cathode follower circuit.

That's 1/2 of a 12ax7 tube that takes its signal from the plate of the preceding 12ax7 in the pre-amp but the tone controls are then connected to the cathode and it is the source of Marshall Crunch. It is copied directly off of the design for the '59 5F6-A Fender Bassman...which also gets that's same glassy crunch. No cathode follower...no crunch. At least not the exact same type of crunch.

I believe almost all "Mesa" amps (not "Boogie" amps) have a cathode follower. Since the Recto's gain circuit is a copy of Soldano's modded Marshall design, and the Recto circuit has been copied in various forms into most of the other "Mesa" amps.....

 

[some_dude]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

I'm finding moderation with these MESA's is KEY, and prolly thats why I never bought one years ago. I would dial them up like my Marshalls or Laney or Jackson head or whatever, and it would sound like A$$..buzzy, tubby, etc. Set it right and they just sing or crunch with the best of them..no buzz or high end fizzy junk...no sloppy bass, etc.

+1,000,000.

There's alot of cool tones in the low gain, high output ranges of the dials.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Originally Posted by Lewguitar:
"There may be some Mesa that can do the Marshall thing...but those would have to be a model with a circuit called a CATHODE FOLLOWER. I don't know that Mesa actually makes an amp with a cathode follower circuit."

Originally posted by screamingdaisy:
"I believe almost all "Mesa" amps (not "Boogie" amps) have a cathode follower. Since the Recto's gain circuit is a copy of Soldano's modded Marshall design, and the Recto circuit has been copied in various forms into most of the other "Mesa" amps....."

I didn't know that. My experience with Mesa-Boogie amps is limited to Boogies. They definately do not crunch like Marshalls to me.

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Ok...I will not disagree with anybody...YET! I want someone to show me a Mesa OR a Boogie without a plate loaded tone stack! Marshall amps are based on a Tweed Fender (59 Bassman) Mesa/Boogie amps started based on Blackface/Silverface Fender amps. I have never seen a Mesa or a Boogie with a cathode follower tone stack, so if there is one someone pleace let me know.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Ok...I will not disagree with anybody...YET! I want someone to show me a Mesa OR a Boogie without a plate loaded tone stack! Marshall amps are based on a Tweed Fender (59 Bassman) Mesa/Boogie amps started based on Blackface/Silverface Fender amps. I have never seen a Mesa or a Boogie with a cathode follower tone stack, so if there is one someone pleace let me know.

Thanks! That was my impression too. But I like I said, my experience with Randall Smith's products is limited to older Boogies. Lew

 

[diatribe]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

i have a daul rectifier that i just retubed using a quad of kt88's, high gain ecc83's, and gz34 rectifiers that i got from bob at eurotubes.com.

THIS AMP IS A BEAST!

I agree with you that less is more when it comes to the gain knob, i never turn mine up on either channel(older two channel rectifier) past 10 o'clock.

I could not be more pleased with my amp, I am still kinda in shock!

I just wanted to say if you need tubes talk to bob, and that my amp will now kill the marshall sound, not even having el34's in it.

sorry for hijacking your post
DJM

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Thanks! That was my impression too. But I like I said, my experience with Randall Smith's products is limited to older Boogies. Lew

Lew,

Hey buddy, how are ya! I have played through several Mesa's as well as lots of Boogies and so far ALL of them sound like Big Ol' Fender amps of the SF/BF type with lots and lots of Distortion! The tone controls even work like a SF/BF Fender amp. Im not gonna say that ALL of them are but I do not know of one that isn't a plate loaded tone stack! All Randall's old amps were just over grown Fender amps with master volumes (that worked), and booster circuts based on old hamm radio designs. Randall Smith has even said that he HATES cathode follower tone circuts mostly because the bass control has very ltiilt effect most of the time, I highly doubt that he has started using them.

 

[Falstaff]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Glad you like it, Jeff! Are you digging the clean tones as well?

 

[DirrtyCraig]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

I just can't get past that sloppy/farty/loosy bottom in every Mesa/Boogie I've ever played through. I'll stick with my modded Marshall style amp.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Lew,

Hey buddy, how are ya! I have played through several Mesa's as well as lots of Boogies and so far ALL of them sound like Big Ol' Fender amps of the SF/BF type with lots and lots of Distortion! The tone controls even work like a SF/BF Fender amp. Im not gonna say that ALL of them are but I do not know of one that isn't a plate loaded tone stack! All Randall's old amps were just over grown Fender amps with master volumes (that worked), and booster circuts based on old hamm radio designs. Randall Smith has even said that he HATES cathode follower tone circuts mostly because the bass control has very ltiilt effect most of the time, I highly doubt that he has started using them.

Thanks again! I've only owned one Boogie...a Mark I. I sold it within a couple of months. Just not my tone. Works great for Santana and Springsteen and zillions of other guys but just kind of a "buzzy" sounding overdrive to my ears and with my playing style.

Built like a tank though!

Lew

 

[some_dude]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

We covered some of this preamp design stuff a little while ago;

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?t=24676

 

[That90'sGuy]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

If you insist on Mesa, but want Marshall type tones, get a Stiletto. That's the best Mesa I've heard for Marshall type flavor.

 

[JeffB]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

I just can't get past that sloppy/farty/loosy bottom in every Mesa/Boogie I've ever played through. I'll stick with my modded Marshall style amp.

That was my point. I don't like it either, but with experimentation and moderation/tweaking of the controls (compared to how say Marshalls, Laneys, other marshall type amps work), you don't have to have it. It's when you start dialing things high when those problems occur. It's a very different beast, I'm finding.

Lew,

As far as how they are built (circuits, etc), I know very little about amps. My intention was not to cause an argument, as I love Marshalls and have played them for many years. I do know that I've got a very good marshall-like crunch going on. As I said, not perfect or exact...but very good nonetheless and versatility to spare comparitively. I am using the contour switch for this sound wich adds some "growl",pulls some mids, and boosts treble and bass frquencies. Normally this makes for a "recto" type sound (which I don't care for whatsoever) if you have channel 2 (gain channel) dialed for a more classic or vintage sound. But by setting the channel 2 controls as I posted originally with the contour on, you get real close to a marshall type sound..more like an MV/800 series sound than say a 1987/1959/JTM45. It's a little bit darker, but I think I could get even closer to that marshall top end sparkle if the amp had a presence control.

As for the clean tones, it's by far the best I've owned or played through..which includes several vintage few BF/SF/Tweed Fenders either myself or my brother owned (rockabilly players..yeesh ) Wes Montgomery to Brian Setzer to SRV..does it all.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Lew,

As far as how they are built (circuits, etc), I know very little about amps. My intention was not to cause an argument, as I love Marshalls and have played them for many years.

Me either. I was just pointing out the source of Marshall Crunch....that cathode follower circuit that Boogie's don't have. That said, I get a real marsahlly tone from my amps too. They don't crunch exactly like a tweed Bassman or Marshall Plexi but I've revoiced the tone controls and made some alterations so they sound "Marshally". Thanks! Lew

 

[JeffB]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Me either. I was just pointing out the source of Marshall Crunch....that cathode follower circuit that Boogie's don't have. That said, I get a real marsahlly tone from my amps too. They don't crunch exactly like a tweed Bassman or Marshall Plexi but I've revoiced the tone controls and made some alterations so they sound "Marshally". Thanks! Lew

Agreed...just didn't want anyone to think I was "ragging" on Marshalls (well unless it's the new stuff )

what amps are you using?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Marshall's can't Boogie, but Boogies can Marshall

Agreed...just didn't want anyone to think I was "ragging" on Marshalls (well unless it's the new stuff )

what amps are you using?

All my amps are tweaked but not heavily modded.

'51 Super (Dual Professional) w/ Jensen P10R & C10N 10"

'58 5E3 Deluxe w/ Celestion alnico 12"

'59 5F6-A Bassman w/ Jensen P10R's 10"

'66 Deluxe Reverb w/ Celestion G12H30 12"

'74 Super Reverb w/ Weber P10Q 30 watt 10"

I rarely play through the Super Reverb, but cranked and with the normal channel modded with a Marshall/tweed Bassman tone stack and the negative feedback resistor tweaked for less negative feedback, it gets a nice "Marshallesque" tone too! But no "crunch".