L
Little Pigbacon
Guest
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
Unalloyed asswagonry.
Unalloyed asswagonry.
Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
- Thread starter Evan Skopp
- Start date
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
This is why we can't have nice things.
This is the kind of crap that reminds me why I don't out there anymore. It's beautiful, when it's not burning, but some of the policies are just plain whacked out.
So, what about Martins not sold in CA?
This is why we can't have nice things.
This is the kind of crap that reminds me why I don't out there anymore. It's beautiful, when it's not burning, but some of the policies are just plain whacked out.
So, what about Martins not sold in CA?
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
I'm sure CA is the only state with such an idiotic Supreme Court.
I'm sure CA is the only state with such an idiotic Supreme Court.
ErikH
Well-known member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
Yeah, but are Martins sold in the rest of the States marked MIA or did the CA Supreme Court decide to try and push their agenda on the rest of the country?
Yeah, but are Martins sold in the rest of the States marked MIA or did the CA Supreme Court decide to try and push their agenda on the rest of the country?
KeeperOS
New member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I still don't get it.
Taking the usual guitar world's sense of "best" then you have:
Combine that with the fact that even today, for better or for worse, in the guitar world the ABSOLUTE BEST guitars are still perceived/expected to be "Made in USA" and you can see how that might be an issue for the entire US Guitar Industry...
I think that editorial says it best when they said that they'd like to meet even a single guitarist that would feel cheated if the manufacturer were to use the very best materials and components when building their Made in USA instruments.
Perhaps it'd be a good chance for the entire US Musical Instruments Industry to unite and take legal action against said law, or at least this particular interpretation of it.
But hey. like I said, no dog in this fight...
I don't really have a dog in this fight but I still don't get it.
Taking the usual guitar world's sense of "best" then you have:
- The "best" hardware in the world is Made in: Germany/Japan (depends on who you ask really but rule of thumb is, bridges=Germany, rest=Japan)
- The "best" bone for nuts and bridges Made in: Planet Earth as it is hard to find good bone in general as it is.
- The "best" tone woods are sourced from: Again, Planet Earth since, like DrNewcenstein already mentioned. American Alder, (Southern US) Swamp Ash, Canadian Maple, Honduran Mahogany, Macassar Ebony, Brazilian Rosewood, African Mahogany. And don't even get me started with woods like Limba, Koa, Wenge, Padauk etc.
Combine that with the fact that even today, for better or for worse, in the guitar world the ABSOLUTE BEST guitars are still perceived/expected to be "Made in USA" and you can see how that might be an issue for the entire US Guitar Industry...
I think that editorial says it best when they said that they'd like to meet even a single guitarist that would feel cheated if the manufacturer were to use the very best materials and components when building their Made in USA instruments.
Perhaps it'd be a good chance for the entire US Musical Instruments Industry to unite and take legal action against said law, or at least this particular interpretation of it.
But hey. like I said, no dog in this fight...
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Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
I get what you are saying...but, I think of a pizza. Maybe it has some imported cheeses on it or some nice Prosciutto DePalma, thrown on some greek olives. However that has little to do with the guy behind the counter that lovingly flips the dough and cooks my pie to perfection. That pizza was made in America and where the parts came from has little to do with the artisan that prepared it.
I get what you are saying...but, I think of a pizza. Maybe it has some imported cheeses on it or some nice Prosciutto DePalma, thrown on some greek olives. However that has little to do with the guy behind the counter that lovingly flips the dough and cooks my pie to perfection. That pizza was made in America and where the parts came from has little to do with the artisan that prepared it.
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treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
This is why the law is stupid, couldn't have worded it better
This is why the law is stupid, couldn't have worded it better
muttznmongrelz
New member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
That was just my opinion and we each have our own. Maybe there should be a label like on autos that states a percentage of parts from each country.
That was just my opinion and we each have our own. Maybe there should be a label like on autos that states a percentage of parts from each country.
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
I still say the core of the issue is the SC of CA was allowed to misinterpret a clearly-written part of the law in question. A general layman with no legal experience understands the statement "entirely or substantially". It even goes further to offer the options "manufactured OR produced OR made" in the USA. Not "made AND manufactured AND produced" in the USA.
While it'd be nice if those manufactured components were done so in the USA, mostly for the jobs aspect, the SC needs to step up and address that issue directly rather than side-stepping it and hitting indirect targets. Martin doesn't decide where the tuners are made, the manufacturer does.
And last time I looked, the laws are quite clear that the base components of any construct once brought together into a final form are the property of the entity who brought those components together in that specific final form. That is what allows people who use cameras and software and paint and canvas and musical instruments to sell the works they generate from those base elements, whether it's a book typed up in Word or an image created in Photoshop or a song composed and recorded on a computer.
This also means that whoever combines those elements into that final form may declare that it was "Made In" whatever country they did said work in, even if the base elements were made outside that country.
I still say the core of the issue is the SC of CA was allowed to misinterpret a clearly-written part of the law in question. A general layman with no legal experience understands the statement "entirely or substantially". It even goes further to offer the options "manufactured OR produced OR made" in the USA. Not "made AND manufactured AND produced" in the USA.
While it'd be nice if those manufactured components were done so in the USA, mostly for the jobs aspect, the SC needs to step up and address that issue directly rather than side-stepping it and hitting indirect targets. Martin doesn't decide where the tuners are made, the manufacturer does.
And last time I looked, the laws are quite clear that the base components of any construct once brought together into a final form are the property of the entity who brought those components together in that specific final form. That is what allows people who use cameras and software and paint and canvas and musical instruments to sell the works they generate from those base elements, whether it's a book typed up in Word or an image created in Photoshop or a song composed and recorded on a computer.
This also means that whoever combines those elements into that final form may declare that it was "Made In" whatever country they did said work in, even if the base elements were made outside that country.
Phantasmagoria
watch where you point that sabre
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
This Martin issue seems like overkill. Half the components in pedals & amps are most likely Chinese, whether they're labelled US-made or not.
What's more interesting is the thing that Edgecrusher pointed out the other day (in the Bugera thread) when he said how he had to deal with dishonest Chinese manufacturers asking him whether he'd like "Made in USA" or "Made in Italy" printed on his order/goods or whatever. The fact that he was even asked so casually about it indicates that blatant/fraudulent mis-labelling like that obviosly goes on and is pretty common place or they ("dishonest" Chinese manufacturers) would'nt have asked about his "requirement" in that regard. In the end ..It takes two hands to clap.
Which brings us to ...how much that's labelled "made in the US" is actually that at all?
This Martin issue seems like overkill. Half the components in pedals & amps are most likely Chinese, whether they're labelled US-made or not.
What's more interesting is the thing that Edgecrusher pointed out the other day (in the Bugera thread) when he said how he had to deal with dishonest Chinese manufacturers asking him whether he'd like "Made in USA" or "Made in Italy" printed on his order/goods or whatever. The fact that he was even asked so casually about it indicates that blatant/fraudulent mis-labelling like that obviosly goes on and is pretty common place or they ("dishonest" Chinese manufacturers) would'nt have asked about his "requirement" in that regard. In the end ..It takes two hands to clap.
Which brings us to ...how much that's labelled "made in the US" is actually that at all?
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Boogie Bill
New member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
I think this is a sad issue. Doesn't seem to be a lot of common sense involved.
As a longtime Martin owner and player, I'd advise Chris Martin to simply not sell Martin guitars in California.
Bill
I think this is a sad issue. Doesn't seem to be a lot of common sense involved.
As a longtime Martin owner and player, I'd advise Chris Martin to simply not sell Martin guitars in California.
Bill
Lazarus1140
New member
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
Common sense? Bill, we are talking about politicians.
Common sense? Bill, we are talking about politicians.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
It is scraped from the hooves of unicorns.
It is scraped from the hooves of unicorns.
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
If a great American artist imported a block of the finest Italian marble and did a lifelike sculpture of EVH for downtown L.A. that took years to capture every nuance of Eddie, would it be made in America? What if it was made of Indian bronze or Brazilian rosewood. Yes it would be great American art by a great American artist. At the end of the day no one cares about the statue or the percentage of the materials sourced overseas. It is one and done, this is about regulating manufacturing. Unfortunately the proud "Made In The U.S.A." tag gets caught up in the politics.
That was just my opinion and we each have our own. Maybe there should be a label like on autos that states a percentage of parts from each country.
If a great American artist imported a block of the finest Italian marble and did a lifelike sculpture of EVH for downtown L.A. that took years to capture every nuance of Eddie, would it be made in America? What if it was made of Indian bronze or Brazilian rosewood. Yes it would be great American art by a great American artist. At the end of the day no one cares about the statue or the percentage of the materials sourced overseas. It is one and done, this is about regulating manufacturing. Unfortunately the proud "Made In The U.S.A." tag gets caught up in the politics.
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
How many members of Califorgetyou's Supreme Court were "Made in America" by Americans? Are they comprised of foreign-made materials? By what right does the pot call the kettle black?
How many members of Califorgetyou's Supreme Court were "Made in America" by Americans? Are they comprised of foreign-made materials? By what right does the pot call the kettle black?
Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"
So just to make this clear. Under California law your Chevy Camaro, Ford Mustang or Harley Davidson with a SONY stereo or your Cadillac with the navigation system is no longer Made In The U.S.A.. Full disclosure my 79 Camaro was assembled in Mexico with U.S. parts...but still come on!
So just to make this clear. Under California law your Chevy Camaro, Ford Mustang or Harley Davidson with a SONY stereo or your Cadillac with the navigation system is no longer Made In The U.S.A.. Full disclosure my 79 Camaro was assembled in Mexico with U.S. parts...but still come on!
