Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

Dumb. Very dumb

Where does Seymour source his magnet coil ore?

What is a magnet coil? You mean the wire for the coils? That would be copper and the lions share of that comes from Chile. But is mined in not insignificant amounts in many countries.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

What's more interesting is the thing that Edgecrusher pointed out the other day (in the Bugera thread) when he said how he had to deal with dishonest Chinese manufacturers asking him whether he'd like "Made in USA" or "Made in Italy" printed on his order/goods or whatever. The fact that he was even asked so casually about it indicates that blatant/fraudulent mis-labelling like that obviosly goes on and is pretty common place or they ("dishonest" Chinese manufacturers) would'nt have asked about his "requirement" in that regard.

Want to hear another interesting one? During that same time we helped broker a deal between an Italian company called Askoll to sell electric motors for washing machines to chinese factories. The deal was for 15 million! pieces a year! With an option for another 2 million. Thats a decent chunk of the washing machine market. So there is a decent chance inside of your shiny new chinese made washing machine is a electric motor from an italian company.

We helped with other deals also. One was for an italian company to sell leather to chinese shoe factories.

I guarantee you that all those shoes even though they made of italian leather carry a "made in china" stamp.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

That was just my opinion and we each have our own. Maybe there should be a label like on autos that states a percentage of parts from each country.

Actually my (former) Dodge Charger came with just that! Was largely Mexican and Canadian.

I think this is a sad issue. Doesn't seem to be a lot of common sense involved.

As a longtime Martin owner and player, I'd advise Chris Martin to simply not sell Martin guitars in California.

Bill

I agree 100%. I say don't sell in California less highly regulated state to have to worry about taxes and licenses and I'm sure the dealers in Oregon, Utah, Arizona, etc would be more than happy to have more sales from people coming out of CA to pick 'em up. And while the sales taxes on Martins alone is not going to cripple the economy, for a State with budget deficits and high spending, it certainly doesn't help.

Common sense? Bill, we are talking about politicians.

EDIT: I will refrain from any additions here for the sake of forum rulse :bigok:

If a great American artist imported a block of the finest Italian marble and did a lifelike sculpture of EVH for downtown L.A. that took years to capture every nuance of Eddie, would it be made in America? What if it was made of Indian bronze or Brazilian rosewood. Yes it would be great American art by a great American artist. At the end of the day no one cares about the statue or the percentage of the materials sourced overseas. It is one and done, this is about regulating manufacturing. Unfortunately the proud "Made In The U.S.A." tag gets caught up in the politics.

Another excellent point.

How many members of Califorgetyou's Supreme Court were "Made in America" by Americans? Are they comprised of foreign-made materials? By what right does the pot call the kettle black?

Absolutely, I doubt any other them are 100% Native American descent (which, at one time the "Natives" were new here as well) not to mention America is not just the USA–my friends in Central and South America would claim they are just as much "America"...which then begs the question should MIM also be considered MIA?

 

[Darg1911]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I think you are missing the point, they are made in Pennsylvania. Just any guitars sold in CA can't have that tag.

Trey already brought up the Auto analogy that I would have thrown out. In fact, are ANY non-NOS electronic components made in the U.S.?

I didn't miss the point. I missed the facts. I thought it was for items made in California. Thanks for the clarification. I still say, leave it to California for the idocy. And it's spreading.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

not to mention America is not just the USA–my friends in Central and South America would claim they are just as much "America"...which then begs the question should MIM also be considered MIA?

Meh no not at all. This crap that the north and South American are referred to as just America is recent revisionist bull malarky. Before Facebook memes passed around in the the last couple of years saying America was an abbreviated way of saying the United states of America. Geographically they would be called north, south or central or as " the Americas" if you as a person from Brazil where are you from they would never ever say America they would say Brazil.

And it doesn't beg the question it brings up the question. Begging the question is circular reasoning where the statement is said to be true by way of proof, but the proof itself requires proving.

 

[chadd]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I still don't get it.

Taking the usual guitar world's sense of "best" then you have:

• The "best" hardware in the world is Made in: Germany/Japan (depends on who you ask really but rule of thumb is, bridges=Germany, rest=Japan)
• The "best" bone for nuts and bridges Made in: Planet Earth as it is hard to find good bone in general as it is.
• The "best" tone woods are sourced from: Again, Planet Earth since, like DrNewcenstein already mentioned. American Alder, (Southern US) Swamp Ash, Canadian Maple, Honduran Mahogany, Macassar Ebony, Brazilian Rosewood, African Mahogany. And don't even get me started with woods like Limba, Koa, Wenge, Padauk etc.

So, by that logic, you can EITHER have a guitar Made in USA OR, have a guitar made out of the best possible components and raw materials BUT NO BOTH.
Combine that with the fact that even today, for better or for worse, in the guitar world the ABSOLUTE BEST guitars are still perceived/expected to be "Made in USA" and you can see how that might be an issue for the entire US Guitar Industry...

I think that editorial says it best when they said that they'd like to meet even a single guitarist that would feel cheated if the manufacturer were to use the very best materials and components when building their Made in USA instruments.

Perhaps it'd be a good chance for the entire US Musical Instruments Industry to unite and take legal action against said law, or at least this particular interpretation of it.
But hey. like I said, no dog in this fight...

i think the only issue with the items you listed would be the hardware, everything else would be considered "raw materials", unless the nut or wood was machined to to shape or pre-laminated before importation.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

Meh no not at all. This crap that the north and South American are referred to as just America is recent revisionist bull malarky. Before Facebook memes passed around in the the last couple of years saying America was an abbreviated way of saying the United states of America. Geographically they would be called north, south or central or as " the Americas" if you as a person from Brazil where are you from they would never ever say America they would say Brazil.

And it doesn't beg the question it brings up the question. Begging the question is circular reasoning where the statement is said to be true by way of proof, but the proof itself requires proving.

Actually, the old maps before the USA referred to it as North and South America as seen in this 1744 British Map:

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"Begs the question is a term that comes from formal logic. It’s a translation of the Latin phrase petitio principii, and it's used to mean that someone has made a conclusion based on a premise that lacks support. It can be a premise that's independent from the conclusion or in a simpler form, a premise that’s just a restatement of the conclusion itself."

My use of using "begs the question" was that the California definition of MIA is faulty ("lacks support") and therefore the statement of MIA would include MIM based off of the faulty premise of the Californian definition; rather, interpretation.


EDIT: Don't know why it included 5 other quotes from my last post

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I think they should only change the labeling for the California models, then who knows, perhaps the California editions will become the 'rare' collectibles.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

Want to hear another interesting one? During that same time we helped broker a deal between an Italian company called Askoll to sell electric motors for washing machines to chinese factories. The deal was for 15 million! pieces a year! With an option for another 2 million. Thats a decent chunk of the washing machine market. So there is a decent chance inside of your shiny new chinese made washing machine is a electric motor from an italian company.

We helped with other deals also. One was for an italian company to sell leather to chinese shoe factories.

I guarantee you that all those shoes even though they made of italian leather carry a "made in china" stamp.

Yeah, well that's like Martin using imported wood/ Japanese tuners or whatever it is they do. I don't really see a problem. I'd still say they were MIA.

The problem for me would be when it's not just a few of the components involved but entire finished products which are being mislabelled/passed off as made in a particular country when they're not.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

The problem for me would be when it's not just a few of the components involved but entire finished products which are being mislabelled/passed off as made in a particular country when they're not.

Like Freekish Blues pedals buying cheap Chinese Joyo pedals and repainting them (and filling the inside with gunk because that's what boutique dudes do) and selling them as hand made with a waiting list and all

 

[Securb]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

What is California going to do with their booming Microbrew industry that uses imported hops on a large scale? I would also worry about their porn industry but they already ruined that with regulations.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I think there's some confusion over the legal definition of "made." In the vernacular, "to make" is to build something or create something. So if you take a bunch of offshore-sourced materials and bring them into the USA and create a finished good, it's "made" in the USA. In this usage of "made," it's solely based on the location of the labor used to create the product.

But that's not how the word is used by the Federal Trade Commission, the law, or the courts. When I first joined SD, the standard for "Made in USA" was 51% of the total cost of the product had to come from USA. That total cost included the labor and materials (not overhead). Eventually, the FTC tightened the standard to "all or virtually all" of the cost--again, labor and materials. Now, the California court, in the Leatherman case and the Lifetime backboards case, has further tightened the definition to "any article, unit, or part thereof," has to be "entirely or substantially made, manufactured, or produced" in the U.S. According to the Music Trades editorial, that means "100% of every piece of every part in a product must be made in one of the 50 states." If you follow the progression, the location of the labor was always part of the equation. The California court tightened the definition insofar as how it relates to materials.

Finally, please keep the politics out of this discussion.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I think they should only change the labeling for the California models, then who knows, perhaps the California editions will become the 'rare' collectibles.

I wouldn't be surprised if they considered that. But think of the cost. They'd have to double their part numbers to create California versions. The auto makers did that. But evidently Martin didn't want to go that route.

Besides, what's the law in California today is often the law in the rest of the states, eventually.

 

[hydro]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I wonder why they haven't gone after Gibson?

Or do they not have "Made in USA" stamped on the back of the headstock any more?

Interestingly enough, Mesa Boogie which is Cali-based has "Hand-Crafted in Petaluma, CA" as their logo instead of Made in USA. I guess that's how they get around it. Taylor, I am not sure whether they brand their guitars as being made in a specific location although the less expensive ones are MIM.

 

[Evan Skopp]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I wonder why they haven't gone after Gibson?

First of all, who's "they?" It's not the state of California. It's aggressive litigators looking to score big on a settlement or judgement.

"They" didn't go after Martin. But Martin took a prudent course and changed their country of origin language to prevent a lawsuit from aggressive trail lawyers. (Which leads to a 100% political discussion about tort reform, which was mentioned in the editorial, but I deleted so as not to bring politics into this discussion).

 

[dystrust]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I think they should only change the labeling for the California models, then who knows, perhaps the California editions will become the 'rare' collectibles.

I wouldn't be surprised if they considered that. But think of the cost. They'd have to double their part numbers to create California versions. The auto makers did that. But evidently Martin didn't want to go that route.

CA is the largest individual market in the US, so many companies make their product to CA standards to avoid the cost and complexity of multiple product lines. It also prevents possible negative consequences (either criminal or civil) if they ship a non-CA product to CA by mistake.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

Meh no not at all. This crap that the north and South American are referred to as just America is recent revisionist bull malarky. Before Facebook memes passed around in the the last couple of years saying America was an abbreviated way of saying the United states of America. Geographically they would be called north, south or central or as " the Americas" if you as a person from Brazil where are you from they would never ever say America they would say Brazil.

And it doesn't beg the question it brings up the question. Begging the question is circular reasoning where the statement is said to be true by way of proof, but the proof itself requires proving.

I got in an argument once in Turkey over this. I said I was from Canada, she nodded in agreement and said, "America". I said, "not America, Canada".

I wound up drawing a picture, pointed at the US and said "America" and at Canada and said "Canada".

She drew a circle around the US and Canada and said, "America". It dawned on me at that moment that she was correct.

 

[BriGuy1968]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

California has some pretty "out there" views on a lot of things. I sell paint, and we have products in our store (in Michigan) which say "This product contains chemicals known TO THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA to cause cancer..." :lame:



Thank God I live in Michigan where I can be around such products safely!

More and more it seems that California is becoming anti-USA. :rant:oed:

By the way, I'm not PO'd at all Californians, just the idiotic laws they come up with and the sheeple that make/support them! There are plenty of great people out there, I'm sure, but (as is illustrated by the subject of this thread) there are also plenty who have nothing better to do and lack the scruples to leave a perfectly legitimate thing alone based on some minute technicality... all in the name of lining their own pockets at the expense of the innocent. Grrr.... this stuff really gets me going!

 

[hydro]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

First of all, who's "they?" It's not the state of California. It's aggressive litigators looking to score big on a settlement or judgement.

"They" didn't go after Martin. But Martin took a prudent course and changed their country of origin language to prevent a lawsuit from aggressive trail lawyers. (Which leads to a 100% political discussion about tort reform, which was mentioned in the editorial, but I deleted so as not to bring politics into this discussion).

Yes, that's what I meant was the trial lawyers. I didn't realize they hadn't hit Martin yet and that Martin was just doing preventative legal self-defense.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Martin Guitars No Longer "Made in USA"

I got in an argument once in Turkey over this. I said I was from Canada, she nodded in agreement and said, "America". I said, "not America, Canada".

I wound up drawing a picture, pointed at the US and said "America" and at Canada and said "Canada".

She drew a circle around the US and Canada and said, "America". It dawned on me at that moment that she was correct.

Technically everything from Canada to Chile is part of the Americas. It was part of the "New World" between Europe and Asia (remember, Columbus thought he had found an alternate route to India.) The maps from the early 1600's is anything BUT "recent revisionist bull malarky."

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