Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

[Revelation Sound]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Real spring reverb is real spring reverb. I grew up Fender and had Twins most of my playing life. Nothing on the planet to me is better then a Twin Reverb running spring. It's an incredible sound. The Cleans on those amps to me are the best in the world. I never really liked digital reverb. On the GT-100 I can dial in some good reverbs as they are pretty good on the GT-100 but the Spring doesn't compare to the real thing at all.

I agree about the spring reverb in the Twin. I love the one on my 65 Twin RI and my effect pedals don't come close. Many sound too washy.

 

[Lysergene]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Thank you for your input. It's a dream of mine I know will never come true. I'm not holding my breath or anything. Again I'm not unhappy with the Gt-100 a I feel it's the best GT ever by a long shot. The GT-10 was nice but it really killed your amps tone. I A-B it so many times I got it out and went back to pedals. It sat and collected dust for a While. It only went back in when I was sick and tired of using pedals.

With setting up the GT-100 Guitar input level some dude on youtube made this patch to test your input of your guitar and then give the ability to set it so the GT wasn't clipping. I thought this was awesome as I was to hot on many of my guitars and never knew what that digital sounding Clipping was, once I learned that my sound improved a lot.
My issue with the Send and return is how to test it. So I want the front of my amp to see the same level output just like if I was using pedals. I want the front of my amp or preamp if you will to have all it's dynamics and be crushed by a to hot input or the other way to light and not get the drive out of the front. Then in the effects loop the return to the amp hit the amp the same way as if I had effects in the loop and it was getting hit by the preamp out and then to the amp. I have played around with the levels but honestly there is no way to test this unless I keep switching between pedals and back to the GT. I wish someone came up with a test patch to adjust these levels. Once they are set, thats it.

I use the expression pedal as a Volume pedal so I can practice at home without ripping my face off.

All those other Processors I looked into are not as complete as the GT. I would however like to demo them.

Keeping the volume at a decent level can be tricky when you're chaining stuff in one box. If I remember correctly there is a way of monitoring the levels all the way through. With the GX-700 the level displayed was the level of the output for the selected effect. I usually tried to keep the level as hot as possible without clipping. Same with pedals; I don't think there is a rule regarding how hard it hits your amp. Somewhere in the ball park of a guitar plugged straight into the amp is fine, although I always found that my FX processors end up quite a bit louder, which is also fine.

Experimentation and reading the manuals helps.

Is there any software available to program the GT-100 on a PC or Mac? Works well with the Axe....

 

[Lysergene]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Real spring reverb is real spring reverb. I grew up Fender and had Twins most of my playing life. Nothing on the planet to me is better then a Twin Reverb running spring. It's an incredible sound. The Cleans on those amps to me are the best in the world. I never really liked digital reverb. On the GT-100 I can dial in some good reverbs as they are pretty good on the GT-100 but the Spring doesn't compare to the real thing at all.

I grew up with spring reverb too, in a Laney Session 45. The Boss RE 20 does a very good job of emulating one. Good enough to apply to a guitar in a mix. I'd consider the Roland unit that it's designed to emulate if I had to use it on a snare in a reggae setting though. The Axe does a real good job of spring, the GT-10 was pretty poor but again, I got away with it for a while (with two other guitars and keys, vox, drums in the mix).

 

[Lysergene]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Omar Rodriguez Lopez gets some mad sounds using pedals, some of them cheap units. John Frusciante also uses Boss and Line 6 with good (fantastic IMO) results. It's how you use it. Just experiment. When you get it right try sticking arrows on the pots, all facing up. That way all you need to do to get your sound is to have all the arrows pointing up.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

I will agree that Boss amp sims are terrible- at least 15 years behind the competition. I still love their effects, though I don't own many now. They should come out with a pristine multieffect with no amp sims where they put money into clean converters and the best effects around. I'd believe that will sell. Line6 did something like that with their M series, and Fractal is doing that with their FX8.

 

[devastone]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

If I were to buy a Fractal, personally I would spend the extra $150 and get the AX8 and just not use the amp models if I didn't need them, I can't imagine they rewrote the effects algorithms for the FX8.

I agree with Hank on the Boss Waza concept, they are repackaging mods that have been done to their pedals for years and charging 3X the price for less than $1 worth of parts. I don't think the Waza concept would apply to a digital multi-effects unit though where the effects are all digital, it's not like they can say we made our "1s" bigger and our "0s" smaller, or anything. I guess they could improve the converters, but that would go back to my original problem with the Waza, just do it, parts aren't that expensive. As far as where they are made, it doesn't really matter where the board stuffing robot it, they work the same.

@Mincer, I don't have any experience with Fractal, Kemper, or the new Line 6 models, but it doesn't surprise me that the Boss ones aren't as good. I do think the ones in the 100 are a huge step up from the 10 that I tried. It actually surprises me that Boss hasn't been more toward the front of the modeling game, but compared to the other companies they are huge and it takes more time to get stuff done(?). Although, since Yamaha now owns Line 6, and I was blown away by their THR practice amps, I would love to see if some of that modeling shows up in L6 products (or maybe it does in the Helix, which I would like to try).

Anyway, my <$0.02

 

[Hank-]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Keeping the volume at a decent level can be tricky when you're chaining stuff in one box. If I remember correctly there is a way of monitoring the levels all the way through. With the GX-700 the level displayed was the level of the output for the selected effect. I usually tried to keep the level as hot as possible without clipping. Same with pedals; I don't think there is a rule regarding how hard it hits your amp. Somewhere in the ball park of a guitar plugged straight into the amp is fine, although I always found that my FX processors end up quite a bit louder, which is also fine.

Experimentation and reading the manuals helps.

Is there any software available to program the GT-100 on a PC or Mac? Works well with the Axe....

Boss released an editor specifically for the Gt100 i think, besides that there is a software called Floorboard that works, made by the guy that released the same one for the gt10.
The gt10 had a meter thing in the FX Chain menu, the one that allows rearranging the order. When a effect block was highlighted, there was a meter on top horizontal that could be used as an indicator.

Great write up my man. Thank you for taking the time to reply in such detail.
I think you would like the GT-100 way better then the GT-10. It's much better in just about every way. The Modeling I can't speak for as I don't use it but they say it's better. I played with it and I hate it as I did on the GT-10. Yeah you can make it useable in ways but I get annoyed with it fast as the dynamics are just not there.
Speaking of Dynamics, this is something the GT-100 is much better then the GT-10. You retain more of your Plug directly into the front of your amp on the GT-100 then the GT-10. The GT-10 sucked the life out of your dynamics and make you sound flat and unresponsive. One thing I really hated about the GT-10.
I use the Headphone jack on the Gt-100 and but 4 patches with Modeling preamps just for nighttime practice like running scales or technic. I can't use it to play the songs I wrote or anything as like how you feel about the GT-10, The Gt-100 is very uninspiring sounding with Headphones. I have a pretty nice pair of German headphones and Hoestly I think it sounds like ass.

Thanks buddy. I'm keeping the 10 for when i ever need so much control over effects but otherwise, i find it way too much. One thing I figured out about my ears is that i don't like all effects from the same brand, a unit like the GSystem/Major, GT, gives me just that. Overall, i don't see upgrading from the gt10 in the future, presently it's sitting unused for three months. Actually the gt10 pairs brilliantly with a marshall amp or one inspired by it, i don't hear much tone suckage with it when using it along my laney straight to amp input.

Even as pedals are concerned, I'm not looking for anything there either. I'm surprisingly content with what i have, although i don't have a reverb pedal but i prefer natural reverb from the place I'm playing in. I recently bought a isolated supply from joyo, but otherwise i have a wah, tremolo, two OD pedals & a ehx stereo mistress sitting in the closet. I might get a joyo eq for collection but otherwise not interested in anything too seriously. Plus the gt10 is there if i want something out of the ordinary. I have four of the joyo sound pedals, one i altered to be the t21 orange sim, rest I've altered to be proper clones but with the joyo buffer, so as far as amp sounds are concerned boredom ain't possible either at home or live for me.

My main guitar setup is HSS, it gives me very useful config with my remaining rig. Plus the volume knob brings variety along with the tone knob. I'm sort of at a point where i want more guitars than anything else lol

The modelling on the gt100 can sound good, i think they did improve it but that horrid special eq is still present on the headphone output. For all the things they could have included in their editing, a simple on/off option in the global menu would be great.
Here's a link to a review with an audio clip i liked of the gt100. I could never get that nice a sound out of the gt10's modelling for direct use. http://www.spencerbruce.com/review-boss-gt-100-live-initial-thoughts

That youtube link i posted earlier of Johnny Marr, it did sound great there too, well for fx use since that's what he was using it was in that vid.

 

[Hank-]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

If I were to buy a Fractal, personally I would spend the extra $150 and get the AX8 and just not use the amp models if I didn't need them, I can't imagine they rewrote the effects algorithms for the FX8.

I agree with Hank on the Boss Waza concept, they are repackaging mods that have been done to their pedals for years and charging 3X the price for less than $1 worth of parts. I don't think the Waza concept would apply to a digital multi-effects unit though where the effects are all digital, it's not like they can say we made our "1s" bigger and our "0s" smaller, or anything. I guess they could improve the converters, but that would go back to my original problem with the Waza, just do it, parts aren't that expensive. As far as where they are made, it doesn't really matter where the board stuffing robot it, they work the same.

@Mincer, I don't have any experience with Fractal, Kemper, or the new Line 6 models, but it doesn't surprise me that the Boss ones aren't as good. I do think the ones in the 100 are a huge step up from the 10 that I tried. It actually surprises me that Boss hasn't been more toward the front of the modeling game, but compared to the other companies they are huge and it takes more time to get stuff done(?). Although, since Yamaha now owns Line 6, and I was blown away by their THR practice amps, I would love to see if some of that modeling shows up in L6 products (or maybe it does in the Helix, which I would like to try).

Anyway, my <$0.02

I think the AX8 is actually cheaper than the FX8, if i remember right haven't checked the current prices for these though. It had something to do with the converters or processors.

 

[devastone]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

The AX8 is $1399 and the FX8 is $1249. But after a little quick reading, the FX8 has some functions that the AX8 doesn't have, like 2 amp switching jacks, and some other stuff that makes it work better in the 4CM, so for effects only that would be the way to go.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Multi effects.....well 30 years down this guitar road now....and they are still a major pain in many respects.....
Even back when I had a rack, the effects where basicly just on and off....
As it did not take more than one live show to hate preprogrammed stuff...unless you play a very strict boring set day out and in.

Sold the midi controller.
Arranged the effects to verb, delay and modulation....and if I needed more reverb I just turned a knob on the linemixer....
Even threw away the taptempo pedal...

Eventually sold the whole thing as it was a pain to use....
Have the same dislike for "deep" machines....
I just get bored...all that setting up...tedious and the rewards are not matching the effort, could have used all that time playing instead.

Others gets a kick out of it, more power to them....
Too much work for my taste, I rather get down to it in a hurry.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

I agree!

Nothing against digital effects for the most part (I prefer analog overdrives, fuzzes, distortions and Uni-Vibe) but I just like to be able to lean down and twist a knob. Most multi effects suffer from the menu paging issue for me. Some are better now, but I just like the discrete nature of pedals.

 

[Lysergene]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

If I were to buy a Fractal, personally I would spend the extra $150 and get the AX8 and just not use the amp models if I didn't need them, I can't imagine they rewrote the effects algorithms for the FX8.

I agree with Hank on the Boss Waza concept, they are repackaging mods that have been done to their pedals for years and charging 3X the price for less than $1 worth of parts. I don't think the Waza concept would apply to a digital multi-effects unit though where the effects are all digital, it's not like they can say we made our "1s" bigger and our "0s" smaller, or anything. I guess they could improve the converters, but that would go back to my original problem with the Waza, just do it, parts aren't that expensive. As far as where they are made, it doesn't really matter where the board stuffing robot it, they work the same.

@Mincer, I don't have any experience with Fractal, Kemper, or the new Line 6 models, but it doesn't surprise me that the Boss ones aren't as good. I do think the ones in the 100 are a huge step up from the 10 that I tried. It actually surprises me that Boss hasn't been more toward the front of the modeling game, but compared to the other companies they are huge and it takes more time to get stuff done(?). Although, since Yamaha now owns Line 6, and I was blown away by their THR practice amps, I would love to see if some of that modeling shows up in L6 products (or maybe it does in the Helix, which I would like to try).

Anyway, my <$0.02

I think Boss knows that it can continue as is, seeing as it is a part of the Roland group or whatever. If you checked the Fractal amps .... Well, I borrowed one from a friend for a while and instantly turned into Smeagol. I had to have one. There are like 80 or so parameters for each amp. It can get quite hard to manage but I'm big into music tech (I teach it at a college) The algorithms for their floor based units are very likely to be the same as the Axe FX II. I also like that each firmware upgrade includes a bunch of new effects/amps/cabs/microphones/mic preamps and improvements on existing ones. I have to say that there is some element of reprogramming involved when they do that, it is optional to upgrade though.

If you like the GT 100 then just use that man. It's hard to justify the cost of Fractal gear if you aren't into weird soundscapes etc.as myself and Mincer are. I toured the US and Europe with one and have headlined large festivals. So, if it sounds good it doesn't matter if you use a speak and spell IMO.

 

[mantis]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Keeping the volume at a decent level can be tricky when you're chaining stuff in one box. If I remember correctly there is a way of monitoring the levels all the way through. With the GX-700 the level displayed was the level of the output for the selected effect. I usually tried to keep the level as hot as possible without clipping. Same with pedals; I don't think there is a rule regarding how hard it hits your amp. Somewhere in the ball park of a guitar plugged straight into the amp is fine, although I always found that my FX processors end up quite a bit louder, which is also fine.

Experimentation and reading the manuals helps.

Is there any software available to program the GT-100 on a PC or Mac? Works well with the Axe....

Yes there is and I use it , it's called Boss Tone Studio

 

[mantis]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

I will agree that Boss amp sims are terrible- at least 15 years behind the competition. I still love their effects, though I don't own many now. They should come out with a pristine multieffect with no amp sims where they put money into clean converters and the best effects around. I'd believe that will sell. Line6 did something like that with their M series, and Fractal is doing that with their FX8.

I've been saying this for years and hoping they release it.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

If I were to buy a Fractal, personally I would spend the extra $150 and get the AX8 and just not use the amp models if I didn't need them, I can't imagine they rewrote the effects algorithms for the FX8.

I agree with Hank on the Boss Waza concept, they are repackaging mods that have been done to their pedals for years and charging 3X the price for less than $1 worth of parts. I don't think the Waza concept would apply to a digital multi-effects unit though where the effects are all digital, it's not like they can say we made our "1s" bigger and our "0s" smaller, or anything. I guess they could improve the converters, but that would go back to my original problem with the Waza, just do it, parts aren't that expensive. As far as where they are made, it doesn't really matter where the board stuffing robot it, they work the same.

@Mincer, I don't have any experience with Fractal, Kemper, or the new Line 6 models, but it doesn't surprise me that the Boss ones aren't as good. I do think the ones in the 100 are a huge step up from the 10 that I tried. It actually surprises me that Boss hasn't been more toward the front of the modeling game, but compared to the other companies they are huge and it takes more time to get stuff done(?). Although, since Yamaha now owns Line 6, and I was blown away by their THR practice amps, I would love to see if some of that modeling shows up in L6 products (or maybe it does in the Helix, which I would like to try).

Anyway, my <$0.02

What the AX8 doesn't provide (and the FX8 does) are really quiet converters and relays for channel switching. The analog signal never goes through converters if no effects are on (on the FX8). On the AX8, the signal is always going through converters no matter if you use amps/effects/ or none at all. Honestly, I can't hear the difference, but I bet in some rigs you can.

I also think Line6 is being run as a 'separate company' than Yamaha. They pay for and design their own stuff. I think they might benefit with some more involvement from Yamaha. I'd love to see an update of the M-series....like a Helix-level effects device, but I am not even sure if all of the effects were updated from the models they were using 15 years ago.

 

[Lysergene]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

Has anyone used the Digidesign Eleven Rack? I was seriously considering it for a while and it seems to get decent press. It's not hugely expensive either.

 

[devastone]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

I also think Line6 is being run as a 'separate company' than Yamaha. They pay for and design their own stuff. I think they might benefit with some more involvement from Yamaha. I'd love to see an update of the M-series....like a Helix-level effects device, but I am not even sure if all of the effects were updated from the models they were using 15 years ago.

They should really build off of Yamaha's THR models, some of the best I've played, and that was just the little one. But, eh, they don't care what I think :grumble: Hmmm, GT-100 with a THR100HD amp would be a nice easy to carry set up.

I do agree with Vashnu, I prefer pedals, but as I'm only playing in church, with little to time for set up and sound check, the GT just makes life easier.

 

[IMENATOR]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

I decided to do a combination of both. For the real core of my FXs I get the pedals, I came to find that is chorus and echo so I got the Trutone H2O. For other FXs that are just there from a cameo like octaver, volume boost + touch of delay for solo, deep ambiance delay+reberv, harmonizer and other I just got the Zoom MS-70CDR. For the overdrive and distortion I use the gain of my AMT SS-20.

 

[Lysergene]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

I decided to do a combination of both. For the real core of my FXs I get the pedals, I came to find that is chorus and echo so I got the Trutone H2O. For other FXs that are just there from a cameo like octaver, volume boost + touch of delay for solo, deep ambiance delay+reberv, harmonizer and other I just got the Zoom MS-70CDR. For the overdrive and distortion I use the gain of my AMT SS-20.

Combination of both is usually a winner man.

 

[baritone]

Re: Multi Effects vs Pedal age old question.

After being a pedal freak for so many years, I'm taking a minimalist approach now: take full advantage of amp footswitching for distortion, EQ, & reverb; then add my favorite modulation & delay pedals, & I'm set.