Music theory question

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Re: Music theory question

Gtrjunior said:
Yup, plus a lot of players will nudge that minor 3rd toward the major which is a sound we are used to hearing, so it sounds normal to us.
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Blues doesnt use conventional diatonic theory. It uses all dominant chords as the 1, 1V, or V.
 
Re: Music theory question

Gtrjunior said:
Yes, it’s very interesting how it all still works.
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It doesn't work. We've just got used to hearing the wrong notes since it has been a heavy influence on much of the most popular music created since before most of us were born. :P
 
Re: Music theory question

GuitarStv said:
It doesn't work. We've just got used to hearing the wrong notes since it has been a heavy influence on much of the most popular music created since before most of us were born. :P
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Tell Clapton and Angus it doesnt work or any of the other blues rock players, they may disagree
 
Re: Music theory question

Gtrjunior said:
That’s exactly why it works.
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To me, thats like saying harmonic minor and melodic dont work either. Neither of those scales are natural scales either. Its all about tension and release I guess. I prefer the blues rock type of playing myself. But I love it all TBH
 
Re: Music theory question

OLDERBUDWISER said:
Tell Clapton and Angus it doesnt work or any of the other blues rock players, they may disagree
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I like the sound of it too, because I'm used to it. I have the background that lets me hear it as making sense. I'm pretty sure that if you played a standard blues to Beethoven (well, pre-deafness anyway) or Mozart they'd both tell you that is was a pile of crap.

Try listening to some traditional east asian music. They use a lot of microtonal stuff - pitches between what we are used to hearing as western notes . . . and even though I know they're doing it for a reason, and to a specific effect . . . to my ears it just sounds like atonal noise. I don't have the cultural music exposure and background necessary to enjoy the sound.
 
Re: Music theory question

I think it was George Benson that said, "There's only twelve notes, and they're all good."

But it does take a great deal of experience and maturity to get to that level. And here we are only talking about our western scales that we are used to hearing. Internationally, there are lots of crazy scales, like Indian and Japanese scales that sound quite odd, even offensive to us.
 
Re: Music theory question

blueman335 said:
Think outside the box, play solos using these scales over an E chord or E note, to give a lot more variety in your playing by changing the home (root) note, your fingering, your string bending, and your riffs. You don't have to learn new scales, just play the the ones you know over different chords:

- play a Dorian minor scale in C#, which are all major scale notes in E
- play a minor pentatonic scale in F#, which are all major scale notes in E, uses a 4th (A) instead of a major 3rd (G#)
- play a minor pentatonic in B, same as a E pentatonic but it substitutes an F# for the G, for a softer sounding scale, part way between major & minor
- play a Dorian minor scale in B (same as above but with 2 added notes)
- play a natural minor scale in A, which are all minor scale notes in E
- play a Dorian minor scale in G#, which are all major scale notes (do re mi...), except that the 4th (A) is replaced with an A#, for an exotic Indian sound
- play a natural minor scale in D, for a middle eastern sound. It's an E natural minor scale, but with the F# replaced by an F for added tension & dissonance

So many players get in a rut with their solos. Mix it up and intersperse these with the scales you normally use, in the same solo. Find which of these work with various songs. Experiment.
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Hmm quite big with all the 4ths and the other things i dont know yet.

I like to play the scales starting from the low E string.

So when you said that ill play a dorian mode in C#, ill start at the 9th fret of the low E?

Then after the dorian shape, ill then proceed to work my self backwards like ionian shape, locrian, aeolian, etc.... if i were to go up the fret board after dorian shape would then be the phrygian, mixolydian etc.. this is what you meant?

I think ill make a new thread.
 
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Re: Music theory question

budubum92 said:
Hmm quite big with all the 4ths and the other things i dont know yet.

I like to play the scales starting from the low E string.

So when you said that ill play a dorian mode in C#, ill start at the 9th fret of the low E?

Then after the dorian shape, ill then proceed to work my self backwards like ionian shape, locrian, aeolian, etc.... if i were to go up the fret board after dorian shape would then be the phrygian, mixolydian etc.. this is what you meant?

I think ill make a new thread.
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In the key of E:

- The natural major scale (do, re, mi...): E F# G# A B C# D# in that order they are the 1st thru the 7th. So the major 3rd is G#, 4th note is A, 6th is C#, etc

- The natural minor scale: E F# G A B C D (four of these notes are part of the major scale)

- Dorian minor scale: E F# G A B C# D (same as natural minor, but a C# replaces the C)


And yes, the Dorian minor scale in C# could start on the 9th fret of the E string(s). It's best if you can start (and end) the scales on various places on every string. Mix up your playing.
 
Re: Music theory question

blueman335 said:
Think outside the box, play solos using these scales over an E chord or E note, to give a lot more variety in your playing by changing the home (root) note, your fingering, your string bending, and your riffs. You don't have to learn new scales, just play the the ones you know over different chords:

- play a Dorian minor scale in C#, which are all major scale notes in E
- play a minor pentatonic scale in F#, which are all major scale notes in E, uses a 4th (A) instead of a major 3rd (G#)
- play a minor pentatonic in B, same as a E pentatonic but it substitutes an F# for the G, for a softer sounding scale, part way between major & minor
- play a Dorian minor scale in B (same as above but with 2 added notes)
- play a natural minor scale in A, which are all minor scale notes in E
- play a Dorian minor scale in G#, which are all major scale notes (do re mi...), except that the 4th (A) is replaced with an A#, for an exotic Indian sound
- play a natural minor scale in D, for a middle eastern sound. It's an E natural minor scale, but with the F# replaced by an F for added tension & dissonance

So many players get in a rut with their solos. Mix it up and intersperse these with the scales you normally use, in the same solo. Find which of these work with various songs. Experiment.
Click to expand...

Yeah...in the end you would still sound the same, but this time the notes are played in different order.
 
Re: Music theory question

The key to not sound like Yngwie is playing 'outside' notes that raises tension before resolving to the next chord (I chord/ target chord). That is if you want to resolve; you can perpetuate the tension with the next chord that is a tritone apart from the chord you are in at the moment.
 
Re: Music theory question

GuitarStv said:
It doesn't work. We've just got used to hearing the wrong notes since it has been a heavy influence on much of the most popular music created since before most of us were born. :P
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This is incorrect. Almost all good music has used chromaticism since we advanced from gregorian chants. There's the square version of the key with the diatonic chords and diatonic melody notes available and then there are chromatic chords and melody ideas which add interest, complexity, and beauty. This is how all good music works. Saying the blues doesn't work because it uses chromaticism is very ignorant of how music works.

GuitarStv said:
I like the sound of it too, because I'm used to it. I have the background that lets me hear it as making sense. I'm pretty sure that if you played a standard blues to Beethoven (well, pre-deafness anyway) or Mozart they'd both tell you that is was a pile of crap.
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I think Beethoven and Mozart would find a lot to like from popular music. Again, they used chromaticism - chords and melodies outside of the diatonic 7 notes - same as we do today. Just the blues didn't exist then.

Obsessive Compulsive said:
The key to not sound like Yngwie is playing 'outside' notes that raises tension before resolving to the next chord (I chord/ target chord). That is if you want to resolve; you can perpetuate the tension with the next chord that is a tritone apart from the chord you are in at the moment.
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Yngwie uses outside notes. Think of his diminished arpeggio that he rips over the 5 chord. He just plays more diatonically than your average blues based metal player.

Obsessive Compulsive said:
Most blues rock players are not musically literate, so they are free to play whatever the f*&^ notes they want to play.
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There is the illiterate way of intuitively knowing the key and jamming or composing out stuff over it. Then there's also plenty of musicians who compose this way. Who know their key or keys and know how to consciously use other notes than the 7 diatonic ones because they're not a effing newb and they know how music works.
 
Re: Music theory question

Whatever notes Yngwie uses he still sounds like melodic minor to me. His note choices are essentially Bach's transferred to guitar.

Diminished arpeggios have at least more than 3 roots as it's symmetrical, so his arpeggios are not actually outside, which explains his being stuck in a rut; Bach over and over again.
 
Re: Music theory question

I'd recommend that people keep a few things in mind here:

1) Music theory is always descriptive, and largely based either on classical music from the period c1700–1900, or relatively mainstream jazz.
2) Music theory always appears post hoc, as a justification of procedures already established (the only exception I can think of right away was the serial composition of Arnold Schoenberg and followers, where the theory preceded the music).
3) Ideas that seem theoretically counterintuitive can often be found to be correct on a higher theoretical level – it being higher is probably an indication that it is a later addition to a theory.
4) One can often jutify the same phenomenon several ways theoretically, so music theory is hardly a unified, self-contained system.

Music theory can be a tremendous tool for assisting you in finding where to go with ideas; many of my best ideas have come from trying to use a particular theoretical construction in a musical idea. At the same time, theory is too flimsily constructed to truly be a science, and if something sounds good, the theory will eventually assemble behind it, so there is no need to worry about it being "correct" or not, with the sole exception being if you are writing a historical pastiche.
 
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Re: Music theory question

Scales and modes are so overrated.

What's more important than memorizing and applying scales and modes is 'phrasing'. It takes years of listening and practicing to be able to spit out ideas without even thinking what scales or tonal center go with which chord, etc.

Jazz players excel at phrasing, rock/ metal guitars not so much. That's why rock solos in general sound like scale excercise. Greg Howe is one of the very few who excel in phrasing.
 
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