Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Like we always say at work, electronics is made of vapor.
Like we always say at work, electronics is made of vapor.
My Legacy blew up!!!
- Thread starter B2D
- Start date
Luke Duke
PRSlustologist
kevlar3000
Bullet Proof Toneologist
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
"Oh, since I know it's already coming, something else to think about... for those of you who are currently using one, everything works until it doesn't work...... I've been successfully smoking for 30 yrs now, why should I stop now???"
I can't just chalk it up to some run of luck that I have not blown up any of my amps, (most 35 + years old) useing a Weber attenuator. 4 years of daily use, countless gigs, recording sessions, ect. I push my amps hard... There must be something within the build that makes it work. You stated that you are not up to speed with current gen attenuators, I think it would be worthwhile to do so, as it is easy to attach truths to old rules that may not apply with the current product line.
This is not meant as a slam at all, you are held in extremely high regard here and I always enjoy your information. It just an attempt to further the conversation.
Proper application is key, good cables, matching ohms properly , amps in proper operating condition ect.... ( stuff you are much more 'schooled' in than myself)As I understand it, the biggest problem with the older gen of attenuators was that they were not rated for 150 + watts that a cranked 100 watter would put out. The were rated for only 100 watts, which caused the failures that many Scholtz and Powerbrakes had. Technology can and does change. I have done the maintence on my amps, so filter caps and other components that are prone to failure have been replaced. If an amp makes an unusual sound, such as this Carvin was, I would have addressed it right away vs hoping it just went away. The amp was saying something was wrong, so something was failing and it was not addressed.
"Oh, since I know it's already coming, something else to think about... for those of you who are currently using one, everything works until it doesn't work...... I've been successfully smoking for 30 yrs now, why should I stop now???"
I can't just chalk it up to some run of luck that I have not blown up any of my amps, (most 35 + years old) useing a Weber attenuator. 4 years of daily use, countless gigs, recording sessions, ect. I push my amps hard... There must be something within the build that makes it work. You stated that you are not up to speed with current gen attenuators, I think it would be worthwhile to do so, as it is easy to attach truths to old rules that may not apply with the current product line.
This is not meant as a slam at all, you are held in extremely high regard here and I always enjoy your information. It just an attempt to further the conversation.
Proper application is key, good cables, matching ohms properly , amps in proper operating condition ect.... ( stuff you are much more 'schooled' in than myself)As I understand it, the biggest problem with the older gen of attenuators was that they were not rated for 150 + watts that a cranked 100 watter would put out. The were rated for only 100 watts, which caused the failures that many Scholtz and Powerbrakes had. Technology can and does change. I have done the maintence on my amps, so filter caps and other components that are prone to failure have been replaced. If an amp makes an unusual sound, such as this Carvin was, I would have addressed it right away vs hoping it just went away. The amp was saying something was wrong, so something was failing and it was not addressed.
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
I was on the phone with a Carvin tech named Mike for about half an hour today. I went over what happened very carefully in detail and he said that what happened was most likely the result of a power tube failure and the tube taking down some other components with it. He does NOT think it's the attenuator's fault, based on what i told him and the pictures he saw.
He says basically what they're gonna do is swap out PC boards inside the amp and clean everything that wasn't damaged and give it new power tubes for around $250.
Comments? At this point I have compelling arguments for both sides on whether that was an attenuator's fault or not.
I have to admit this whole incident has made me rethink my amp strategy. The Legacy is a 100W amp, and even with a 1/2 power switch it's stupidass loud without an attenuator in halfstack form. I really cannot use that much power practically at this stage in my game. I've been looking at amps in the 30-50W range, leaning towards the 30W stuff as i used to have a 50W JCM800 combo and that was getting me volume complaints all the time.
I don't know if I'll stick with the attenuator or not... the Carvin tech says he's going to go through the amp top to bottom to determine exactly what happened. If I decide to stay with the Legacy or a similarly powered amp (50W Marshall), I'll probably have to go with a 2x12 setup to control the volume by reducing speaker coverage.
I've gigged with an old Peavey Classic 50 before (sounded like 30) with good results volume-controllability wise, though. I've been looking at a Peavey Classic 30 head. Those new Mesa Express 5:25 heads and F-30's also look interesting and may suit my needs should I decide to go that direction. I love EL34 based amps but no one seems to make a 30W EL34 rig. I may end up sticking with an EL34 amp for the tone. I can make EL84 work for me just fine with the right amp though.
aaaahhhh.... we'll see what develops.
I was on the phone with a Carvin tech named Mike for about half an hour today. I went over what happened very carefully in detail and he said that what happened was most likely the result of a power tube failure and the tube taking down some other components with it. He does NOT think it's the attenuator's fault, based on what i told him and the pictures he saw.
He says basically what they're gonna do is swap out PC boards inside the amp and clean everything that wasn't damaged and give it new power tubes for around $250.
Comments? At this point I have compelling arguments for both sides on whether that was an attenuator's fault or not.
I have to admit this whole incident has made me rethink my amp strategy. The Legacy is a 100W amp, and even with a 1/2 power switch it's stupidass loud without an attenuator in halfstack form. I really cannot use that much power practically at this stage in my game. I've been looking at amps in the 30-50W range, leaning towards the 30W stuff as i used to have a 50W JCM800 combo and that was getting me volume complaints all the time.
I don't know if I'll stick with the attenuator or not... the Carvin tech says he's going to go through the amp top to bottom to determine exactly what happened. If I decide to stay with the Legacy or a similarly powered amp (50W Marshall), I'll probably have to go with a 2x12 setup to control the volume by reducing speaker coverage.
I've gigged with an old Peavey Classic 50 before (sounded like 30) with good results volume-controllability wise, though. I've been looking at a Peavey Classic 30 head. Those new Mesa Express 5:25 heads and F-30's also look interesting and may suit my needs should I decide to go that direction. I love EL34 based amps but no one seems to make a 30W EL34 rig. I may end up sticking with an EL34 amp for the tone. I can make EL84 work for me just fine with the right amp though.
aaaahhhh.... we'll see what develops.
Jeff Seal
New member
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Good deal, hope everything works out for you.... you can actually drop the plate HV down to a more usable level, takes a little engineering, but it does work quite well! Transforms a 100 watt amp into a 10 watt amp... no joke!
As far as the attenuator debate, I don't have any data to confirm anything.... So I decided on a new approach... "Mythbuster's" ...for amps!!
Do attenuator's harm amps???.... lets find out and maybe blow stuff up! (well hopefully not, but we'll see...) I gotta round up a few attenuators, and get some readings. I can assure all of you, I do actually play and I'm as curious as the next guy to know how well these work.... for everyone's sake. I make amps, but I don't make attenuators... should be a learning experience!
Umm... I'm thinking the Weber Mass, the THD hotplate and the Airbrake.... unless anyone has a better suggestion.
Jeff Seal
Good deal, hope everything works out for you.... you can actually drop the plate HV down to a more usable level, takes a little engineering, but it does work quite well! Transforms a 100 watt amp into a 10 watt amp... no joke!
As far as the attenuator debate, I don't have any data to confirm anything.... So I decided on a new approach... "Mythbuster's" ...for amps!!
Do attenuator's harm amps???.... lets find out and maybe blow stuff up! (well hopefully not, but we'll see...) I gotta round up a few attenuators, and get some readings. I can assure all of you, I do actually play and I'm as curious as the next guy to know how well these work.... for everyone's sake. I make amps, but I don't make attenuators... should be a learning experience!
Umm... I'm thinking the Weber Mass, the THD hotplate and the Airbrake.... unless anyone has a better suggestion.
Jeff Seal
3
34029324079
Guest
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
I dont have any authority in this but heres my 2 cents:
I think you should use a 2x12 instead of a half stack; I say sell the legacy once it gets fixed and get a new lesser wattage amp. I dont want an amp less than 50watts because your lows are really gonna suffer. your probably gonna want to crank the 50watter and that will heat it up too so if you want to avoid this whole hassle best thing to do is to get a new amp. Kinda like a car.
there are alot of attenuators out there and all of em cost like $200 which is as much as a cheap amp. Its hard to imagine a whole industry based on a product that blows up amps. Maybe get your attenuator a tune up from a tech.
I dont have any authority in this but heres my 2 cents:
I think you should use a 2x12 instead of a half stack; I say sell the legacy once it gets fixed and get a new lesser wattage amp. I dont want an amp less than 50watts because your lows are really gonna suffer. your probably gonna want to crank the 50watter and that will heat it up too so if you want to avoid this whole hassle best thing to do is to get a new amp. Kinda like a car.
there are alot of attenuators out there and all of em cost like $200 which is as much as a cheap amp. Its hard to imagine a whole industry based on a product that blows up amps. Maybe get your attenuator a tune up from a tech.
krankguitarist
Krankitupologist
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
I'd suggest checking out a nice open-back or ported 2X12. I made the switch from a mesa 412 to a ear candy buzzbomb 212 a while ago, and it made controlling the volume on my Krank much easier. I get a much wider "spread" with the buzzbomb as well...it makes for a much better mix in a band situation.
Switchin to a smaller cab will probably make the biggest difference volume-wise.
I'd suggest checking out a nice open-back or ported 2X12. I made the switch from a mesa 412 to a ear candy buzzbomb 212 a while ago, and it made controlling the volume on my Krank much easier. I get a much wider "spread" with the buzzbomb as well...it makes for a much better mix in a band situation.
Switchin to a smaller cab will probably make the biggest difference volume-wise.
3
34029324079
Guest
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
^^he had the 2x12 marshall jcm800 and that was way too loud for him, maybe krank would work but I dont think that is B2Ds tonal solution but I see your point...or maybe a 1x12 combo or 1x12 cab would do the trick
^^he had the 2x12 marshall jcm800 and that was way too loud for him, maybe krank would work but I dont think that is B2Ds tonal solution but I see your point...or maybe a 1x12 combo or 1x12 cab would do the trick
3
34029324079
Guest
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
like this cab:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Marshall-1912-E...DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290093754995
wont look that great though...
like this cab:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Marshall-1912-E...DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item290093754995
wont look that great though...
krankguitarist
Krankitupologist
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
I've owned a JCM800 before. The 2203 head, or 100 watt model. No matter what you put those through, they're loud friggin amps
.
I wasn't suggesting a Krank either, I was just sharing my experience with my amp.
Problem with a 1X12 cab is wattage IMO...Sure, you can get a speaker made to handle higher wattages, but my experiences with such speakers has always been a little....eh.
You could always go with a lower wattage amp...but if you're happy with the tone of your amp as it is you might end up being less than pleased with the result.
A 2X12 cab would be the best compromise IMHO.
I've owned a JCM800 before. The 2203 head, or 100 watt model. No matter what you put those through, they're loud friggin amps
.I wasn't suggesting a Krank either, I was just sharing my experience with my amp.
Problem with a 1X12 cab is wattage IMO...Sure, you can get a speaker made to handle higher wattages, but my experiences with such speakers has always been a little....eh.
You could always go with a lower wattage amp...but if you're happy with the tone of your amp as it is you might end up being less than pleased with the result.
A 2X12 cab would be the best compromise IMHO.
3
34029324079
Guest
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
ya maybe he could borrow chops 2x12 for a session
ya maybe he could borrow chops 2x12 for a session
3
34029324079
Guest
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
careful though, he might blow that up too :banana: j/k
careful though, he might blow that up too :banana: j/k
Gr8Scott
Wookieologist
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Get a Port City Wave 2x12. Good thump and easy handling. Smaller and lighter than a 4x12 and the sound quality isn't supposed to be all that different. Met with Daniel yesterday morning to pick mine up. Still haven't had time to test it due to work.
Get a Port City Wave 2x12. Good thump and easy handling. Smaller and lighter than a 4x12 and the sound quality isn't supposed to be all that different. Met with Daniel yesterday morning to pick mine up. Still haven't had time to test it due to work.
Luke Duke
PRSlustologist
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
$250 is pretty good. I'd have the amp rebuilt then I'd sell it most likely. A positive outcome from this would be the Tech seeing something that was done wrong and making sure that this doesn't happen to someone else. Plus think how much it cost you JUST to re-tube.
The new Mesas DO look nice.
Jeff I'll be interested in your findings.
Luke
$250 is pretty good. I'd have the amp rebuilt then I'd sell it most likely. A positive outcome from this would be the Tech seeing something that was done wrong and making sure that this doesn't happen to someone else. Plus think how much it cost you JUST to re-tube.
The new Mesas DO look nice.
Jeff I'll be interested in your findings.
Luke
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Maybe. I think the "suck reduction" circuit on the preamp board got overloaded.
Maybe. I think the "suck reduction" circuit on the preamp board got overloaded.
J Moose
New member
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Yo dude!
That's not a bad deal...$250 for a total service/repair and I'm assuming a whole new set of tubes too?!
Doesn't get much better then that. Retubing a 100 watt head alone averages about $150-200 around these parts.
Well, it might 50/50 on the attenuator. Running the amp hotter burns up the tubes faster and does increase the chance of failure, but if you keep after your tubes, replace them as needed & chase down any kinds of weird noises or behaviors...keep the rig in top-shelf shape for all intents & purposes you're Fonzie. Of course, there IS always the chance of random failure...
Had the amp been acting/sounding weird recently, like in the last month/weeks/days before the meltdown?
Anywhoo...going forward...
Look into a 40-50 watt rig with an open or semi-open back 2x12. At somepoint I think we all realize, or at least consider the fact that unless we're in a mental band or have a crew to haul our shlt around for us, a half stack is just too damn hard to move and it's almost always too damn loud.
I used to gig with a 100 watt Marshall JMP & 2x12 or 4x12 for dirt and a '65 Twin reissue for clean...carry a couple three guitars, stompboxes, and a 3 space rack with a tuner, power & multi-FX.
Seven trips to the car.
Back pain.
WONDERFUL tone!
The girl never liked the big rig...she'd be irritated about driving her own car to shows 'cause mine was filled with the rig...then she started coming less often & the signal to noise ratio became slightly unbearable...
But mostly, it was the back pain.
Sometimes a 1x12 combo is enough, but I generally perfer a 2x12 open back cab for most situations. I miss the tighter, deeper thump of a closed back sometimes...but the sound fills the room with an open back and the tone is a bit looser. The speakers don't 'beam' or project as much so I can get away with pushing the amp a little harder before mr. soundman wants to scream at me.
I also turn my cabs 3/4 or totally sideways so I'm blasting across the stage...sorta through the drummer to the bass player. Helps keep the stage volume reasonable to the 'house' while we can still move some air around.
That's 'cause of the way the tubes are designed & the amps need to run...kinda like a cars engine & it's relationship to the transmission. EL34's are 'rated' at 22-25 watts each, give or take. You need to have two tubes in a circuit, one pushes while the other pulls.
There's always pentode vs. triode...triode (if you have the option to run that way) will cut the power down a bit. Changes the feel & tone a bit too...it's a bit spongier.
Anywhoo, the final calculation of RMS wattage times tubes in amp vs. SPL level or, how loud it REALLY is in the room is ENTIRELY subjective and rarely follows any sort of formula.
You can only get a speaker so loud in any room before it starts to become 'painful'. Could be a 10 watt 1x8" Fender Champ...it's pushing air around in a physical space, with reflective boundries & audible frequencies at play.
Dig.
Yo dude!
That's not a bad deal...$250 for a total service/repair and I'm assuming a whole new set of tubes too?!
Doesn't get much better then that. Retubing a 100 watt head alone averages about $150-200 around these parts.
Well, it might 50/50 on the attenuator. Running the amp hotter burns up the tubes faster and does increase the chance of failure, but if you keep after your tubes, replace them as needed & chase down any kinds of weird noises or behaviors...keep the rig in top-shelf shape for all intents & purposes you're Fonzie. Of course, there IS always the chance of random failure...
Had the amp been acting/sounding weird recently, like in the last month/weeks/days before the meltdown?
Anywhoo...going forward...
Look into a 40-50 watt rig with an open or semi-open back 2x12. At somepoint I think we all realize, or at least consider the fact that unless we're in a mental band or have a crew to haul our shlt around for us, a half stack is just too damn hard to move and it's almost always too damn loud.
I used to gig with a 100 watt Marshall JMP & 2x12 or 4x12 for dirt and a '65 Twin reissue for clean...carry a couple three guitars, stompboxes, and a 3 space rack with a tuner, power & multi-FX.
Seven trips to the car.
Back pain.
WONDERFUL tone!
The girl never liked the big rig...she'd be irritated about driving her own car to shows 'cause mine was filled with the rig...then she started coming less often & the signal to noise ratio became slightly unbearable...
But mostly, it was the back pain.
Sometimes a 1x12 combo is enough, but I generally perfer a 2x12 open back cab for most situations. I miss the tighter, deeper thump of a closed back sometimes...but the sound fills the room with an open back and the tone is a bit looser. The speakers don't 'beam' or project as much so I can get away with pushing the amp a little harder before mr. soundman wants to scream at me.
I also turn my cabs 3/4 or totally sideways so I'm blasting across the stage...sorta through the drummer to the bass player. Helps keep the stage volume reasonable to the 'house' while we can still move some air around.
That's 'cause of the way the tubes are designed & the amps need to run...kinda like a cars engine & it's relationship to the transmission. EL34's are 'rated' at 22-25 watts each, give or take. You need to have two tubes in a circuit, one pushes while the other pulls.
There's always pentode vs. triode...triode (if you have the option to run that way) will cut the power down a bit. Changes the feel & tone a bit too...it's a bit spongier.
Anywhoo, the final calculation of RMS wattage times tubes in amp vs. SPL level or, how loud it REALLY is in the room is ENTIRELY subjective and rarely follows any sort of formula.
You can only get a speaker so loud in any room before it starts to become 'painful'. Could be a 10 watt 1x8" Fender Champ...it's pushing air around in a physical space, with reflective boundries & audible frequencies at play.
Dig.
Gr8Scott
Wookieologist
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Sell the Legacy and get a Vox AD120VTH head plus a nice sealed 4x12 with vintage 30 speakers (marshall 1960). Add on the $279 foot controller and you're set. Volume levels areswitcheable and are no problem regardless of the size of the gig. Tone is great so long as you know the tricks to getting good tone (see GJ about that). Head costs $399 at guitar center RIGHT NOW!! $399 + $279 = $678 for a feature packed and toneful amp with a great pedal that is enough for any gigging musician. Go to guitar center and plug it into a V30 equipped cab and hear it for yourself man. You have nothing to lose by checking it out and everything to gain if you like it.
If you don't do it, Theodie will definitely christen the circuits of your next amp with a heaping helping of his special product.
You must be assimilated into the Vox collective!
Sell the Legacy and get a Vox AD120VTH head plus a nice sealed 4x12 with vintage 30 speakers (marshall 1960). Add on the $279 foot controller and you're set. Volume levels areswitcheable and are no problem regardless of the size of the gig. Tone is great so long as you know the tricks to getting good tone (see GJ about that). Head costs $399 at guitar center RIGHT NOW!! $399 + $279 = $678 for a feature packed and toneful amp with a great pedal that is enough for any gigging musician. Go to guitar center and plug it into a V30 equipped cab and hear it for yourself man. You have nothing to lose by checking it out and everything to gain if you like it.
If you don't do it, Theodie will definitely christen the circuits of your next amp with a heaping helping of his special product.
You must be assimilated into the Vox collective!
Last edited:
J Moose
New member
Re: My Legacy blew up!!!
Are you a shill for Vox or something???
Got all those prices memorized down the last BUCK man.
I'm impressed.
:barf:
Are you a shill for Vox or something???
Got all those prices memorized down the last BUCK man.
I'm impressed.
:barf:
