Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

[Tony_H]

Hi,
I have a question for those who know about effect loops.

I got a Laney LC-15R because of the FX loop. I wanted to connect some of my FX in the loop to get rid of the tone sucking that happens when you chain a lot of pedals in front of your amp's input.

Now some FX work better in front of an amp, so I made sure I hooked those up into the amp's input, specifically: Zoom fuzz to tremolo to touch wah to booster.

The rest of the FX are in the loop: a phaser, a delay and - maybe some more in the future.

Now the uneffected tone is incredibly dull and weak, like with a blanket thrown over the amp. When I disconnect the FX that are in the loop, everything gets better.¨

I believe the FX loop is serial. There is no FX level mix control so I assume all of the signal that goes thru the amp must pass thru the loop as well.
Is that the problem?
What can I do?

Thanks

 

[some_dude]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

It sounds like one or more of your pedals are sucking tone. Which brand/model of pedals are you using in the loop?

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Well I did some forum search on "fx loop" and although I got some ideas, I'm still not sure what to do.

One idea is to get ture bypass pedals for the loop (the ones I have are not true bypass). Out of the four that are in front of my amp, two are true bypass (the fuzz and the OD). There is a noticeable difference between the "guitar-cord-amp" tone and the "guitar-4 FX units-amp" tone; but the difference between the "guitar-4fx units-amp" tone and the "guitar-4 FX units-amp + 2FX units in the loop" tone is like turning the tone control on your guitar to 0.

I thought the FX loop is in the amp to make sure that the tone that goes into the pedals has already been amplified by the preamp so it can get through the fx units (with all of their different impedances, lack of true bypass etc.) without serious losses. If this is true, it must be the lack of true bypass in the pedals that makes the sound so crappy.

Still thinking and searching for answers.
Tony

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

It sounds like one or more of your pedals are sucking tone. Which brand/model of pedals are you using in the loop?

I'm using the Danelectro mini Pepperoni Phaser and PB+J Delay. I know they're cheap but I'd never imagine the 'tone sucking' could be this bad.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

I'm using the Danelectro mini Pepperoni Phaser and PB+J Delay. I know they're cheap but I'd never imagine the 'tone sucking' could be this bad.

I've never used those ones, but I'll ask some shoegaze friends that do. It might be impedance issues.....cheaper stompboxes don't always respond well to being used in an effects loop. I have a Small Clone chorus that I love the sound of, but I can't use it in the effects loop at all without it adding a crackling, fuzzy sound to the bass.

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

I've never used those ones, but I'll ask some shoegaze friends that do. It might be impedance issues.....cheaper stompboxes don't always respond well to being used in an effects loop. I have a Small Clone chorus that I love the sound of, but I can't use it in the effects loop at all without it adding a crackling, fuzzy sound to the bass.

Funny thing ... when I hooked like 7 pedals in front of the amp, it still sounded better than 4 in front and 2 in the FX loop.

I don't want to give up on FX pedals - I feel they add to my music.

One thing I found noteworthy: the Marshall Bluesbreaker II set for Boost gives me a much better lead tone than my Tech21 SansAmp TRI-A.C. I guess it's the way the SansAmp interacts with the amp's preamp.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Funny thing ... when I hooked like 7 pedals in front of the amp, it still sounded better than 4 in front and 2 in the FX loop.

Then there's a good chance they just don't like working at line levels....

I don't want to give up on FX pedals - I feel they add to my music.

You can still use them out front for the time being...then slowly save for something that works well in the loop.

One thing I found noteworthy: the Marshall Bluesbreaker II set for Boost gives me a much better lead tone than my Tech21 SansAmp TRI-A.C. I guess it's the way the SansAmp interacts with the amp's preamp.

I A/B'd a TriAC and GT-2 in the store.....I bought the GT-2. The TriAC had a harsh overtone to it that I didn't like and couldn't dial out.

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

I A/B'd a TriAC and GT-2 in the store.....I bought the GT-2. The TriAC had a harsh overtone to it that I didn't like and couldn't dial out.

Exactly! I love the programmability because I can tweak it to a specific room, but the harsh overtone is always there.
Mmmm... maybe I should sell the TRI-A.C. and some of those cheapos and get a decent delay pedal. I'm sure I will keep the Pepperoni Phaser cuz it just sounds sweet.

Seems like there is some stuff to sort through before I can build my pedalboard. Thanks a lot for now, 'Daisy, I'll have to go walk the dog and then go to bed. I have slept like 5 hours over the last 3 nights.:/
Thanks for your suggestions again. I'll have to take a rest from the stuff for a moment. Like my dad says: "Leave it to a horse, it's got a bigger head"

 

[some_dude]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

I've never used those ones, but I'll ask some shoegaze friends that do.

i just put a PB&J with tuna melt in the loop of a hughes and kettner. i think the buffers on the pedals were clipping the signal.

.

 

[Simon_F]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Tony,

I've found some effects pedals just don't work in the loop - maybe they're just designed to go in front of the amp. Specific example: I have an Ibanez Soundtank delay pedal (DL5?) that sounds OK when placed before the amp. I put it in the effects loop and it absolutely KILLED my tone. I bought a Boss DD-3 and that works absolutely FINE both in front of the amp AND in the loop. No noticeable degradation in tone at all. So try different pedals before you give up on your amp's effects loop.

On the Tech 21 TriAC - Bear in mind that it's meant to be used INSTEAD OF an amp, rather than in front of an amp. This might explain why you don't get great results putting it in front of your amp, and why the Marshall pedal that is designed to go in front of an amp sounds better. I am totally digging my Tech 21 Trademark 60 combo.

Simon

 

[Jag513]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Well, the other guys here had great suggestions, but I just wanted to clarify one thing.

The main purpose of the FX loop is not to make tone-sucking pedals less tone-sucking. The point of it is to put some effects after the preamp. Many modulation effects and time-based effects sound really bad before distortion, and more natural afterwards. If you use preamp distortion, the FX loop lets you stick the pedals that you want after the distortion in the loop (the FX loop is after the preamp, before the power amp).

And yes, some effects just don't work well in the loop. But it's not always just inexpensive effects. Robert Keeley discourages putting the Keeley Compressor in the loop, saying that it's meant to be between the guitar and the amp. My advice is to go try out some other phasers and delays, but try them out in the loop and see what sounds best there.

And some amps' FX loops just sound bad. That might be the case...try swapping around what pedals you get in the loop. If you go guitar-cord-amp and have a true bypass pedal or other high-quality pedal that normally would sound good in the loop, and it still sounds terrible, it could just be that your amp's FX loop takes something away from the tone.

 

[HRP]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Yeo.

I've got a Laney GH50L and I notice a bit of 'dampening' in my tone when I use my FX loop. All that I've got in the loop is a Maxon AD-80 Delay.

HOWEVER, I am using 2 very long (both 20 ft) cables and one of them is a super cheap/bad cable and I'm sure that has something to do with the tone loss.

I just ordered some new cables from www.hydrawire.com, so I'll get back to you in about a week when they come.

-Highly Refined Pirate

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Tony,
On the Tech 21 TriAC - Bear in mind that it's meant to be used INSTEAD OF an amp, rather than in front of an amp. This might explain why you don't get great results putting it in front of your amp, and why the Marshall pedal that is designed to go in front of an amp sounds better. I am totally digging my Tech 21 Trademark 60 combo.
Simon

I have an old funky combo that a friend made out of an old radio cabinet and a few scrap-grade parts. The combo sounds dull and boxy, but it comes to life with the TriAC, and it also sounds good with my Genesis 1 modeler (even with the cab modelling on). So yes, I now realize the TriAC may not be my Laney's cup of tea

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

Well, the other guys here had great suggestions, but I just wanted to clarify one thing.

The main purpose of the FX loop is not to make tone-sucking pedals less tone-sucking. The point of it is to put some effects after the preamp. Many modulation effects and time-based effects sound really bad before distortion, and more natural afterwards. If you use preamp distortion, the FX loop lets you stick the pedals that you want after the distortion in the loop (the FX loop is after the preamp, before the power amp).

And yes, some effects just don't work well in the loop. But it's not always just inexpensive effects. Robert Keeley discourages putting the Keeley Compressor in the loop, saying that it's meant to be between the guitar and the amp. My advice is to go try out some other phasers and delays, but try them out in the loop and see what sounds best there.

And some amps' FX loops just sound bad. That might be the case...try swapping around what pedals you get in the loop. If you go guitar-cord-amp and have a true bypass pedal or other high-quality pedal that normally would sound good in the loop, and it still sounds terrible, it could just be that your amp's FX loop takes something away from the tone.

Some useful ideas there, thanks a lot.

Well I tried my Marshall BB-2 in the loop - and lo and behold, the amp sounded fine. Then I swapped it with the Pepperoni and the tone got worse. Then I swapped the Pep with the PB+J and the tone loss was even worse.

So the next thing I'll do is try some other phaser and delay pedals and see how they work in the loop.

Thanks guys, you've helped me
Tony

 

[Tony_H]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

One more idea, sorry I couldn't resist posting it: if I use another boost pedal (like the BB-2) in the loop after all other stuff, it will give me a clean (make that really clean) volume boost, right? Because it will not be overdriving the preamp to distortion - it will just amplify all of the signal that goes through the amp.

Geez I'm clever! And last night it seemed like the end of the world. I went to bed to get some sleep but I tossed in the bed until 2 a.m., thinking "Maybe I should sell all the pedals and go guitar-cord-amp." or "Maybe I should sell the stuff and get a real good sounding guitar." or "Maybe I should throw it all out the window and then jump out as well to put me out of this misery."
Tony

 

[some_dude]

Re: Nasty sound from FX in the loop: what's wrong?

One more idea, sorry I couldn't resist posting it: if I use another boost pedal (like the BB-2) in the loop after all other stuff, it will give me a clean (make that really clean) volume boost, right? Because it will not be overdriving the preamp to distortion - it will just amplify all of the signal that goes through the amp.

I use an EQ for that.