New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

[blueman335]

Just picked an import SG with P-90's. They were seated a little low, especially the bridge one. I don't like the foam rubber pads holding soap bars in place, and wanted a direct contact with the wood for the tonal benefits. I went to Home Depot looking for a thin piece of trim wood, but ended up with a pack of foot long cedar shims. I got dozens of shims in that bundle for $5. Once I got working on the project, I saw the wisdom in that. I can can cut any section of the shim to get the thickness I want (since they have a gradual taper), and cut another piece to put on top of that, facing the other direction, so that together they make a flat base for the PU. The width on the shims was fine, & didn't require any cutting.

I cut the bottom shim so it fit tight in the slot at the sides. Then cut another piece for on top of that. I used a coarse file to cut notches & ruts in the shims for the PU wires. To get the correct total height, I put the shims in place, put the PU on the shims, and set a ruler across the bridge & frets. On the bridge, as it turned out, I had to cut a thicker shim to get the right height. I used wood glue on each shim. I was able to seat each PU flat on wood, my goal. On the neck PU, the P-90 attachment screws went thru the shims, and into the body, making a direct, tight fit. On the bridge, the shims needed to be thicker, because of the string/bridge angle, so I drilled and screwed the first shim in the body with short screws. I wanted a mechanical connection in case the glue ever weaked over the years from vibrations or humidity. Those P-90's are rock solid now.

Before I put the PU's in for the final time, I put a piece of aluminum foil in the cavity, between the shim & PU, and another piece of foil inside the plastic soap bar cover (making small holes for the pole pieces). Early tests show a low noise level.

Next step is tweaking the magnets & pots. This is not as fast & easy as mounting HB's, but P-90's are a greatly under-used PU these days, and I was thrilled to get an affordable SG with them, for that great look & sound of the 1960's SG Special (ala Pete Townsend).

 

[The Usual]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Sounds like a cool idea. I am looking at ways to put a p90 in my sg. I was going to fashion some block or wood, but I do have a pack of shims laying around somewhere.

I asked this on the other thread, but didn't get an answer. When I change my route to accomodate the p90, will there be enough wood left to go back to HBs and their original rings?

 

[blueman335]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Sounds like a cool idea. I am looking at ways to put a p90 in my sg. I was going to fashion some block or wood, but I do have a pack of shims laying around somewhere.

I asked this on the other thread, but didn't get an answer. When I change my route to accomodate the p90, will there be enough wood left to go back to HBs and their original rings?

Shims give you flexibility that you can't get with a flat, uniform piece of wood; you've got to get the PU within 1/4" of the strings, and that varies a lot between neck & bridge on a guitar with an angled neck (like a SG, LP, 335, etc).

Don't know about going back to a HB from a P-90, but once you have P-90's in, I don't see why you'd want to go back to HB's, and it would probably increase the resale value to have P-90's if you were going to sell it.

 

[The Usual]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

I know, I know. Everyone says that once you go 90, you never ..... I'm sorry. I can't think of anything clever...

The pickups that are stock in this guitar are the Shaws or whatever they call them, so having them in at time of sale may actually help me.

As long as I have the ear of the phat cat expert. I have been offered a PC bridge to try. Thing is, it will pair with a Gibson soapbar that reads 8.5k. So which would you put in the neck, and which in the bridge? Can I put say A3s in a phat cat for the neck to get a better balance?

 

[RockStarNick]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

I LOVE love love the sound of P90s.

And hate hate hate the crude way they're mounted... your shim idea sounds like a good idea instead of foam.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Shims are handy. That's what I use to block my bridges. Another fantastic advantage of them over lumber is that you can trim them to size with a razor knife, rather than needing a saw.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

I don't like the foam rubber pads holding soap bars in place, and wanted a direct contact with the wood for the tonal benefits

I might be swimming against the stream here, but I don't see having a p'up screwed directly to the body without the possibility of freely vibrate as a good thing.

I haven't played any guitar like that, so I can't really tell, but I imagine having the same effect as a palm-muted string.

Isn't it the case...? Please, elaborate; I'm getting more and more curious by the minute!

 

[Micah]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Sounds like a cool idea. I am looking at ways to put a p90 in my sg. I was going to fashion some block or wood, but I do have a pack of shims laying around somewhere.

I asked this on the other thread, but didn't get an answer. When I change my route to accomodate the p90, will there be enough wood left to go back to HBs and their original rings?

Hey Usual--sorry-ive been offline so I hadnt been able to answer untill just a minute ago. Im not as familliar with your model of SG (batwing pick guard). I posted pics of mine on my post so check it out. It sounds like uOpt has some expirience with your type. The mounting however, I do have expirience with. Check thos pics for details.

 

[Micah]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

I might be swimming against the stream here, but I don't see having a p'up screwed directly to the body without the possibility of freely vibrate as a good thing.

I haven't played any guitar like that, so I can't really tell, but I imagine having the same effect as a palm-muted string.

Isn't it the case...? Please, elaborate; I'm getting more and more curious by the minute!

Your going to get a wood-ier mid range when your direct mounted to the body as opposed to a mount that will actually dampen the vibration of the body.

 

[blueman335]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

I might be swimming against the stream here, but I don't see having a p'up screwed directly to the body without the possibility of freely vibrate as a good thing.

I haven't played any guitar like that, so I can't really tell, but I imagine having the same effect as a palm-muted string.

Isn't it the case...? Please, elaborate; I'm getting more and more curious by the minute!

A large part of any PU's tone comes from the wood it's mounted in, so increasing the contact means more wood-derived tone & color. How much tone can be transferred thru foam rubber? With those set-ups, you're probably mainly getting the wood's tone thru the mounting screws. By mounting with shims the way I did, the entire bottom of the PU is held tight against wood, so more of the tonal benefits & complexity of the wood's character is transferred. What most of us don't want is a strict electrical/mechanical-derived tone. We want the organic qualities of wood to come thru. Think of the pure, sterile tone of a transistor amp, vs the colored tones and textures of a tube amp.

This is also the reason why I use tight springs with my HB's, to get more body vibration to the PU, so that it's not absorbed & dissapated by loose springs. Don't want a floppy HB.

 

[The Usual]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Man, I love these threads! So how exactly does tone get "into" a pickup? I always thought a pickup was like a microphone. Whatever is picked up out in front of the coils, is what is being amplified. So what the pickup is attached to, will translate into the sound being produced? How do we know this?

I always thought the tone of the wood was from what was attached to the wood, which is what goes into the strings feild being amplified. I never really thought that vibrating the pickup itself produced sound. Very interesting....

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Well, in theory, the relative vibration of a string above a pickup will be different depending on how the pickup is mounted --- if it's in a pickguard like on a Stratocaster, it's kind of a "floating" mount, similar to a shock mount for a microphone where the plastic suspending the pickup has a little bit of give, and thus vibrations transferred to the wood are not transferred to the pickup. In a Les Paul Junior, you have a dogear P90 mated directly to the body wood. In this schema, vibrations transferred to the wood will be transferred to the pickup. That vibration does not make any sound in the pickup but it changes the pickup's reception of the vibrating string above it.

Imagine you're riding in a car at 50 mph (this is the pickup in the metaphor), with your right hand raised as if swearing an oath in court. Say there's another car coming at you at 50 mph, 10 miles away(this is the vibrating string in the metaphor). The instantaneous rate of change from your hand to that car is 100mph. Here's your Stratocaster scenario. Now imagine, you move your hand forward and backward, closer to the taillights, then closer to the headlights. Say you have very good muscle control and the rate of change of your hand is increasing and decreasing along a sine wave, accelerating to 25 mph, then decelerating to a stop, then reaccelerating to 25 mph then decelerating to a stop, just a simple back and forth movement, only very controlled.

Now, the instantaneous rate of change of the oncoming car, relative to your hand is 125 mph when you are moving your hand forward at 25 mph, and the instantaneous rate of change between your hand and the oncoming car is 75 mph when you are moving your hand away from it at 25 mph. This is your Les Paul Junior. Note that much like the P90, your hand is not moving a great distance, but it will have a real effect.

Now imagine your hand is a guitar pickup and the car is a vibrating string, and think of how different the transduction of the string will be in the case that your hand is not moving, and in the case that your hand is moving.

-Hunter

 

[ugameus]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Now I am thinking about getting shims and putting them in my strat.

 

[super rad stuff]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

blueman, what brand/model SG did you pick up? was it the agile?

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Next step is tweaking the magnets & pots. This is not as fast & easy as mounting HB's, but P-90's are a greatly under-used PU these days,

Are you kiddin' me? The soapbar P90 is the easiest mag-swap pickup on the planet. It takes just seconds. Dogear is a bit more work because of the tub baseplate, but soapbars you just loosen the bobbin mount screws a bit and if there is little or no potting, the magnets will practically jump out.

 

[blueman335]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Are you kiddin' me? The soapbar P90 is the easiest mag-swap pickup on the planet. It takes just seconds. Dogear is a bit more work because of the tub baseplate, but soapbars you just loosen the bobbin mount screws a bit and if there is little or no potting, the magnets will practically jump out.

Slow down fella and read the whole sentence. "Not as fast & easy as MOUNTING HB's." As I've said a few times, swapping magnets in a P-90/Phat Cat is easier than a HB. What I was referring to was the mounting of soap bar P-90's, which is not as straight forward as mounting HB's, especially since I wanted direct wood contact. Don't like the foam rubber method, so I got creative with shims. Cutting & fitting took a lot longer than putting a HB in a PU ring & screwing it in.

 

[blueman335]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

blueman, what brand/model SG did you pick up? was it the agile?

Michael Dolsey is expanding from surf boards to guitars. He's done some Tele's, and just did a few sample SG's; I picked up two. The P-90 one is red & looks like a '60's SG Special. Nice wood grain. I put an A8/A4 in the bridge, and a A5/A2 in the neck. Installed a push-pull to link the PU's in series/parallel. Looks good, sounds good.

Also got a angel wing SG Std in a gorgeous grained mahogany (pretty than any Epiphone wood I've ever seen). Put a A8 498T in the bridge, and a A5/A4 Phat CatN in the neck. Very nice.

Check out his website & email Michael Dolsey about SG's. Let him know there's a demand, especially for P-90 models.

 

[The Usual]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

I still don't completely buy it, but I appreciate the explanation. The hard part for me, is that in either case, the pups are attached the wood of the guitar. Whether via screws, guard etc. They all travelling together. I get the concept that different connections may have different effects, but proving that may be pretty tough. After saying that, I can tell you that I think the only tele sound is that of the ashtray bridge, and I have no proof of why, other than the sound!

Well, in theory, the relative vibration of a string above a pickup will be different depending on how the pickup is mounted --- if it's in a pickguard like on a Stratocaster, it's kind of a "floating" mount, similar to a shock mount for a microphone where the plastic suspending the pickup has a little bit of give, and thus vibrations transferred to the wood are not transferred to the pickup. In a Les Paul Junior, you have a dogear P90 mated directly to the body wood. In this schema, vibrations transferred to the wood will be transferred to the pickup. That vibration does not make any sound in the pickup but it changes the pickup's reception of the vibrating string above it.

Imagine you're riding in a car at 50 mph (this is the pickup in the metaphor), with your right hand raised as if swearing an oath in court. Say there's another car coming at you at 50 mph, 10 miles away(this is the vibrating string in the metaphor). The instantaneous rate of change from your hand to that car is 100mph. Here's your Stratocaster scenario. Now imagine, you move your hand forward and backward, closer to the taillights, then closer to the headlights. Say you have very good muscle control and the rate of change of your hand is increasing and decreasing along a sine wave, accelerating to 25 mph, then decelerating to a stop, then reaccelerating to 25 mph then decelerating to a stop, just a simple back and forth movement, only very controlled.

Now, the instantaneous rate of change of the oncoming car, relative to your hand is 125 mph when you are moving your hand forward at 25 mph, and the instantaneous rate of change between your hand and the oncoming car is 75 mph when you are moving your hand away from it at 25 mph. This is your Les Paul Junior. Note that much like the P90, your hand is not moving a great distance, but it will have a real effect.

Now imagine your hand is a guitar pickup and the car is a vibrating string, and think of how different the transduction of the string will be in the case that your hand is not moving, and in the case that your hand is moving.

-Hunter

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

Slow down fella and read the whole sentence. "Not as fast & easy as MOUNTING HB's." As I've said a few times, swapping magnets in a P-90/Phat Cat is easier than a HB. What I was referring to was the mounting of soap bar P-90's, which is not as straight forward as mounting HB's, especially since I wanted direct wood contact. Don't like the foam rubber method, so I got creative with shims. Cutting & fitting took a lot longer than putting a HB in a PU ring & screwing it in.

So you want the dogear sound out of a soapbar. I get that, but I also hate the idea of not being able to adjust the pickup height. Yeah, shimming would be a lot more work.

 

[blueman335]

Re: New P-90 SG...Anchoring Soap Bars

So you want the dogear sound out of a soapbar. I get that, but I also hate the idea of not being able to adjust the pickup height. Yeah, shimming would be a lot more work.

Dog ears are a much better design, at least as far as mounting. Did a mag swap on a dog ear recently, and it was the quickest & easiest swap I've ever done. Likewise, I wish P-90's had some sort of height adjustment for the entire PU, but at least the pole pieces can be raised. The tone of P-90's is worth a few extra steps.