New to Amp Forum

[SJ318]

Hello,
My friend, Ed, has a blues jr. 3 /reverb. 15 watts I think. Plays a strat, 57/62 pups. Uses a celestion greenback. He is too loud, and he can't get any tube breakup w/out master volume. His sound is harsh, he has every pedal known to man. He wants a new amp.
I played w/him once w/my Princeton reverb re-issue. 18 watts. I was on 10. Could not be heard. So- and I'm making an educated guess, his Celestion is a bigger, more efficient speaker, thus "outlouding" my sweet but overpowered Princeton due to his tubes (el84's?) and his very loud, huge magnet, celestion, even though I have 18 watts on 10 and he has 15 watts on 5. Also I was using a Seth Lover A5 mag. with a big old S. Duncan original "Pickup Booster".
I suggest he try a Princeton, leave the speaker alone, use the 6V6 tubes it comes with, and he will be able to push his tubes AND speaker for a much softer, but still chimey strat sound.
Am I right, or do you have any other suggestions. His band does a Linda Ronstandt tribute, so even with drums and bass and keyboards, his current set up hurts. Spiky to say the least.
He will not entertain the notion of a tube/solid state combo.
What say you masters of the motherboard? I only know Fenders (limited at that).
SJB

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: New to Amp Forum

The Blues Jr. is 15 watts, the '65 PRRI is 15 watts also and the '68 Custom Princeton is 12 watts.
Don't know if I misunderstood your post, but the Blues Jr. Does have a Master Volume. For clean, it should be a high setting with the 'volume' (preamp) set low. For dirty, just the opposite.
Speakers can make a huge difference. If he has access to speaker cabs, have him unplug the internal speaker and run it through a cab. IMO the Blues Jr. does need help with the stock speaker/small cab issue, but I also suspect his settings cause the harshness.

 

[zzmoore]

Re: New to Amp Forum

... His sound is harsh, he has every pedal known to man.....

Start by pulling All/Any of those out of the chain.....

 

[SJ318]

Re: New to Amp Forum

IAM4Tone,
Everything you said is correct, but doesn't exactly answer my question. He would like some natural tube breakup, not that "master volume" fuzzy kind of overdrive.
So I agree, strip him of his (too many, too harsh) pedals-agreed. Get a less efficient speaker so he can drive the amp without being too loud?
MAIN POINT= Ed does not want a master volume in his amp. This is a strong sticking point with my friend. Also must be a tube amp, a much lower wattage amp. Think 1966 Blackface Bassman head (which I still have) but only has 10 watts, no master volume. Break up from tubes, not master volume. Only needs Vol, Treb, Bass controls. Maybe his Zendrive for solos. Any suggestions, Fender, other amp? Thank you again.
SJB

 

[Gone_Shootin]

Re: New to Amp Forum

JJ EL844s are a half power version of the EL84, and I had a set in my Blues Jr before I sold it last year. The difference in volume is negledgible but they do break up sooner.

I ended up selling it because it was harsh and boxy sounding with my guitars and playing style, and I didn't feel like messing around with modding it.

I'm not sure what amp to suggest, but there's a lot of good low wattage amps on the market these days.

 

[IM4Tone]

Re: New to Amp Forum

IAM4Tone,
Everything you said is correct, but doesn't exactly answer my question. He would like some natural tube breakup, not that "master volume" fuzzy kind of overdrive.
So I agree, strip him of his (too many, too harsh) pedals-agreed. Get a less efficient speaker so he can drive the amp without being too loud?
MAIN POINT= Ed does not want a master volume in his amp. This is a strong sticking point with my friend. Also must be a tube amp, a much lower wattage amp. Think 1966 Blackface Bassman head (which I still have) but only has 10 watts, no master volume. Break up from tubes, not master volume. Only needs Vol, Treb, Bass controls. Maybe his Zendrive for solos. Any suggestions, Fender, other amp? Thank you again.
SJB

Either I'm not understanding what you're saying, or you (and he) have it backwards. Diming the "Master" knob w/ min. "Volume" knob (preamp) yields Power amp distortion...a sweet breakup. Diming the "Volume" knob with minimum "Master" knob yields preamp distortion which gives a harsher, fuzzier sound. Most people prefer the idea of having both of these controls on the amp to allow choice between Pwr. tube and preamp tube distortion while controlling volume to reasonable volume.

I run my Master around 7 to 9 and the Volume 3 to 5 yielding a mild breakup. Hit it with a mild OD pedal for soloing....something like an MXR m-133 micro or the very inexpensive, yet sweet sounding JOYO Sweet Baby (or if hung up on the China design, get the pedal it was cloned from...the Mad Professor Sweet Honey). There'll be no harshness using the BJr. in this manner. The JOYO can be had for $40 shipping included.

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: New to Amp Forum

Random thoughts...

His Blues Jr. might benefit from some tube swapping. He might want to experiment with some different brands of preamp tubes--that might go a long way to fattening up his tone. I'd suggest using the JJ EL-84s for power tubes, as they also have a slightly darker tone. And if he is pushing the amp hard in practice and on stage, gigging regularly--he should be replacing the power tubes every six months, like clockwork. Bad tubes can sound harsh.

Getting rid of excess pedals will help. And sometimes just changing the order will improve tone--you could have some buffer issues. Even changing to a cable with slightly higher capacitance can round off some of that spikiness.


======================

I think your Princeton would be an ok choice. I used to have an original Super Champ with the EV 10" speaker. I'd run the thing wide open at band practice. Not quite enough power in clubs, for a rhythm guitarist in a rock band with a ego-maniacal lead guitarist and a loud drummer; but a fun and responsive amp to play on. I very rarely ever used the distortion on this amp; it just didn't sound good. The 10"speaker in this amp makes a big difference, vs. his 12" Celestion.


======================

I'm trying to wrap my head around the small amp thing with the Ronstadt Tribute band....so much of her guitar parts are recorded REALLY clean, and I would not want to try going from pristine clean tones to full tube distortion--it's going to be either too loud or the rhythm parts with have too much crunch, or be totally anemic and toneless. If you are playing different clubs, different sized rooms, different stages...there are just too many variables for consistent sound. What might be perfect in one room might be perfectly horrible in another.


======================

If he really doesn't want a Master Volume, he should investigate an A/B rig. I might try something like a Deluxe Reverb on the bottom for the clean parts; and a Super Champ XD, or even the 5-watt Blackstar or 5-watt Marshall wide open...mic'd up if needed. And if he's not finding another amp he likes, he might want to try an attenuator. This will get his power tubes working hard, and he can control the overall volume with the attenuator. This is a very different sound than that of a Master Volume amp.


======================

If your friend wasn't so closed minded, there are several Mesa amps I could recommend: the Trans-Atlantic 15 and its bigger brother, the TA-30; the Mini-recto Reverb; Lone Star Special; and the 5:25 Express--all slightly different flavors. The Lead and Crunch tones on these amps are so good he could probably toss his distortion pedals. All of them have multiple power amp settings so you can run them wide open on the low power settings for power tube breakup. Or the older, now discontinued DC-2 or the F-30. These small Mesas amps have totally professional features, great efx loops and superior build quality. And if he's using any kind of delay or reverb pedals, he really needs an amp with an efx loop...these sound horrible and unnatural going into an already distorted amp--you really want your distortion coming BEFORE your reverb and echo.

Bill

 

[SJ318]

Re: New to Amp Forum

IM4Tone, and Bill,
You have it right. However, he is not close minded, he just needs, from what I know, the simplest set up possible. His mix of Master and Volume just never comes out right. It comes out "fizzy", and in trying to help him, I know that simpler is better. He is the only guitarist, and my thought to you IM4Tone is that the simpler the better. I personally use a Hot Rod deluxe and put the master on 5 and the volume on 3- 4, good and slightly gritty rhythm sound, also using a sparkle drive clean and gain settings for extra dirt and a nice old S. Duncan pup booster for solo's. I use whatever speaker it comes with.
He is not close minded, just a little cork sniffing when it comes to tubes or a mix of SS/tube amps.
This thread has gotten way beyond what I meant it to. It is my fault, and I ask you to forgive me. Just wanted a simple suggestion for a low wattage tube amp that will break up with out a master volume, and push the speaker at the same time. Around ten watts. That's all. Everything else you folks said would just turn his eyes glassy, and his brain would shut off. He is not closed minded, just needs it simple. All of your advice, Bill and IM4, is very very good advice. Just not for him.
Again, I am sorry to have wasted your time. I respect both of you and what you have to say in and around these Duncan Forums.
Very Sincerely,
SJB

 

[zzmoore]

Re: New to Amp Forum

It sounds like YOU know what to do with HIS amp.
Yank all the pedals...turn the few knobs to where YOU think the amp sounds "good".....then ask him to plug in for a minute.
Otherwise.....leave him to his own devices. :dunno:

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: New to Amp Forum

Uses a celestion greenback. He is too loud

The greenback is not the issue. They are not very efficient.

and he can't get any tube breakup w/out master volume.

reducing the master level reduces power tube breakup. He will get a smooother tone by winding up the master and reducing the gain. He probably trying to get that buzzy preamp distortion to give himself more sustain.

His sound is harsh, he has every pedal known to man. He wants a new amp.

He needs to get used to guitar/cable/amp and ditch the pedals. His amp is fine. They get used by pros the world over. I think his problem is that hes trying to get his sound from the "gravy" (the pedals) and fogetting to cook the "meat and potatoes" properly (the guitar and amp).
Even with boutique true bypass pedals, a long chain of links (pedals) eventually strangles your tone. Manily because of all the extra cables and links and relays on the way. If you you are good listener you can even hear the effect of one true bypass pedal in your chain. Extra cables add extra capacitance and slowly but surely everything adds up to eat into your sparkle, touch sensetivity and dynamics which you cant get back no matter how many pedals you use.

I played w/him once w/my Princeton reverb re-issue. 18 watts. I was on 10. Could not be heard. So- and I'm making an educated guess, his Celestion is a bigger, more efficient speaker, thus "outlouding" my sweet but overpowered Princeton due to his tubes (el84's?) and his very loud, huge magnet, celestion, even though I have 18 watts on 10 and he has 15 watts on 5.

Are you sure its a greenback (g12m) and not the bigger magnet g12h? i know they build a 75 watt version of the g12h with a green back. But "greenbacks" are a low powered low efficency design....the original "greenback" is the g12m. Bear in mind that princetons only have a 10 inch speaker. Anywways - even if it is the big magnet, higher efficiency speaker, he still should be able to get a sweet tone at pretty much any volume if hes a good player.

Also I was using a Seth Lover A5 mag. with a big old S. Duncan original "Pickup Booster".

It really doesn't matter what pickups or pedals you have if you amp is maxing out...that's all it can give.

I suggest he try a Princeton, leave the speaker alone, use the 6V6 tubes it comes with, and he will be able to push his tubes AND speaker for a much softer, but still chimey strat sound.

Blues junior is fine. He just needs to learn how to get a good sound using it.

Am I right, or do you have any other suggestions. His band does a Linda Ronstandt tribute, so even with drums and bass and keyboards, his current set up hurts. Spiky to say the least.

He sounds like he would get a crappy tone out of any gear. Probably to much reliance on pedals and distortion and not enough reliance on his fingers and subtlety to get sustain and dynamics.

He will not entertain the notion of a tube/solid state combo.

I prefer all tube amps too. However, from reading what you have told me, its not his amp that's the issue. Its the way he uses it.

What say you masters of the motherboard? I only know Fenders (limited at that).
SJB

Sounds like hes an old guy who is set in his ways, but he's an immature player who relies on too much buzzy distortion to cover his lack of musical sensitivity. Good players can play nice with others even using big powerful amps like twin reverbs. Its all in the ears and the hands.
The best approach for him (if he's willing to try) is to spend a month or more practicing unplugged and learning to get subtle nuances out of his axe using nothing but his fingers, then to spend a month using only the amp and no pedals with the master high and having the speaker pointing directly at his own ears. He will hate it initially, but he will learn what his guitar/amp actually sound like to others. Its kinda like looking in the mirror in a bright light. He will get to hear all his imperfections in the harsh light of day, but honestly, that's the only way he will begin to actually improve as a musician and learn to play well with others. That is, if he really wants to get better, which is often not the case with a lot of loud players.

Making music is kinda like talking. Some people talk really loudly and act like their opinions are the only ones that matter, and steamroll the people around them. It doesn't mean that what they have to say is either right, or interesting to others. Sometimes it is the softly spoken people, who with a few well chosen and delivered words that can change our perceptions forever. Not everyone is a good listener tho, and spend their whole lives just talking loud and saying nothing. Its the same with music.

 

[SJ318]

Re: New to Amp Forum

zzmore-gibson175,
Everything you said, both of you, is true, sadly. Funny you should both say what you did. I spoke to him earlier and told him he must lose those pedals, my exact words where "if you bought one more pedal this whole side of Tacoma would break off and sink." Exact words. Thankfully he laughed. His celestion is a Greenback 25M, I know, he asked me for it.
We talked for a long time and I told him to settle on an amp, he has his heart set on a princeton. Fine. I also told him there is no reason I can get a good sound out of his gear, - (which I used a guest guitarist when he played an acoustic set.) I bypassed all his pedals, turned the master and volume quickly as I had no time to soundcheck, guessed vol on 3, master on 4, a little amp reverb and a Zendrive set to give a little gain, mid, & sparkle for solos, used my L.P.Jr. I made, and the sound was beautiful. - If I could do it at such a low level, he should be able to also, at that volume or higher.
Then I told him-whichever amp, just leave it alone and let me use your guitar and I'll get a good sound for you. A 10 inch speaker in a princeton would be good as it is a fresh start for him, mentally. He is new to lead guitar playing as an equal strength to his singing and rhythm playing. He has a base of licks basically from the "Leslie West" camp, which is good, but he is nose deep in a whole new level of guitar responsibility.
Normally it would be me on lead, him on rhythm, taking a few leads, and a bass and drummer playing in his "Blues Band". We used to play a lot before I became too disabled to keep up.
I gave him lessons but he would not do what I asked to build a strong foundation. It became "show me this solo, show me that solo,etc." Then as the only electric guitarist he spent years on getting "The right tools (pedals) for the job". Just gear gear gear, now he is in the sh*t.
I love him, I hope he doesn't read this, but I created a monster. When I see his Timmy pedal on top of a Zendrive on top of a Rat pedal on top of a reverb peal, etc., etc...... I just see too much.
So, thanks, I agree, we'll see what happens.
SJ

 

[zzmoore]

Re: New to Amp Forum

Yuh Know What .....You sound like a real decent Player/Human.
I have a feeling you knew what to do all along.....you just Wanted/Needed some moral support and confirmation. :beerchug:

 

[SJ318]

Re: New to Amp Forum

zzmoore -
That is one of the top 10 nicest things anyone in my life has ever said to me.
SJB