Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

[myatuck]

Epi LP Florentine. That's the semi-hollow (neck-thru), maple over mahogany body, rosewood over mahogany neck.

Beautiful, beautifully crafted in Indonesia.

Had it 6 months now, sound wasn't what my ears wanted to hear. Swapped out the harness, pots, caps, switch, jack, bridge, and nut. Did it all at once because I didn't want to take the time to empirically document the changes. Bottom line, at least to my ears, guitar sounds several hundred percent better. In addition, in stock form the tone and coil splits were worthless whereas now I have an array of good sounding, again, to me, tones. Don't ask me for proof because as I said I did not go about this scientifically but after comparing the stock harness and components against the after market upgrades, I'd say a large part of the improvement came from the caps and the nut. Could be wrong on that. Just know that I really, really like the change.

That's not why I'm posting.

Gonna go that final step and replace the ProBuckers. I can return them if I don't get my money's worth in terms of improvement.

Seth Lover '55 at the neck, '59 at the bridge.

Question: do I want '55n and '59b or do I want to intentionally install them backwards as in '55b at the neck and '59n at the bridge?

There is at least one post on this forum where the guy (or gal) swears by the latter although he/she kinda backed into it as opposed to systematically processed the thing. Not that I'm one to criticize non-systematic processing:smack:

Here's the link. Last post, page 2 is when the light bulb comes on. https://forum.seymourduncan.com/sho...-SD-59-Neck&highlight=who+knew+'59+seth+lover

Your thoughts, experiences?

Thanks

Sorry. I was thinking it was probably understood from the whole '55/'59 thing that I play almost exclusively clean. British invasion, selected southern rock, a little blues. More about the song than the genre. Don't need versatility, I have other guitars. When I pull this Epi out, I'm looking for vintage PAF, nothing else and a little squeal every now and then from that Seth won't bother me a bit. Thanks

 

[blueman335]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Using a neck calibrated PU in the neck slot gives you a little more high-end and clarity than if you use the corresponding bridge model there. Depends on what you want. There is no correct way to do it. Whatever your ears like.

Seth's have A2's and are warmer and fuller. '59's have more treble and low end, with less mids. I prefer a warmer bridge tone; you may or may not. It's hard to beat a set of Seth's. Why use a '59 in either slot when you can have a couple Seth's? You know who Seth Lover was, don't you? He worked with Seymour to create that PU.

 

[jake_xms3_punk]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I've still yet to try the Seths but I am dying to! The 59's are great PAF style pickups though.
Putting a neck pickup in the bridge with a bridge pickup in the neck could potentially have big volume differences.
Back in the day, PAFs didn't have dedicated neck and bridge pickups so why not try two neck pickups in both positions? You'll still have to adjust for volume differences but not as much as bridge and neck pickups in opposite positions.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Back in the day, PAFs didn't have dedicated neck and bridge pickups.

Right, and sometimes neck PU's were way louder than the bridge PU's. Being calibrated these days keeps the volume more in balance.

 

[jake_xms3_punk]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Right, and sometimes neck PU's were way louder than the bridge PU's. Being calibrated these days keeps the volume more in balance.

That's what I was trying to say, I would rather use two of the same pickup than a bridge pickup in the neck with a neck pickup in the bridge. a bridge pickup in the neck would overpower a neck pickup in the bridge easily. Two of the same pickup would be easier to balance. Obviously a dedicated neck and bridge set would be preferable

 

[AlexR]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I'd go 2 Seths. Not only because I find the 59 to be bland, but because the only luck I had with it was in A2 magnet form. The Seth would be more musical in a semi hollow, and the unpotted bit would help make it sparkle more.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

The Seth would be more musical in a semi hollow, and the unpotted bit would help make it sparkle more.

+1. There's still a lot of members with PAF's that haven't tried Seth's. That needs to change!

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I also agree with everyone else that a calibrated set of Seths would be your best choice for pups, and will give you way more improvement in tone than you have already experienced by changing your electronics, bridge, and nut.

By the way, I believe your big improvement in tone so far was probably from your bridge and pots rather than from your nut and caps.

 

[myatuck]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

"You know who Seth Lover was, don't you?"

I do. And when I meet him in the next life, I'll ask him if he minds having our hearing tested to see how closely we compare as well as how he thinks (because he had no way of knowing when he was here) his pickups would have performed in a 2014 Epiphone Les Paul Florentine.

"By the way, I believe your big improvement in tone so far was probably from your bridge and pots rather than from your nut and caps."

Normally, I would agree. However, in this instance two of the replaced pots were identical push pull 500k pots and the other two merely replaced 500k standard pots with 500k push pulls. Yes, the Florentine comes from the factory with 500k's. The caps however are miniscule. Why replace 4 500's for 4 500's? Why not replace just the caps? Because I wanted to install a professionally designed and tested and warrantied aftermarket harness with better caps and switching and you can't do that by soldering in bits and pieces of your own choosing. The bridge? Basically the same except for brass rollers and a bit more perfectly radiused. The new nut? ZeroGlide which is on the other hand a pretty substantial change from the cheap plastic installed from the factory.

In the next few days or so, I'm going to take out the ProBuckers. 1. I'm going to verify their actual resistance. According to other posts, the neck should be 8 and the bridge 8.6. I'm not getting anywhere near that differential when testing through the harness and I need to find out why. I realize testing through the harness will impact the numbers, but I'll be surprised if doing so is materially impacting the differential. 2. I want to see how these things are physically interacting with that neck-thru neck. Do the two pickups have equal operating room or is one breathing in cramped quarters while the other runs free on the open range? 3. Depending on what I find on the first two actions, I may reinstall the Probuckers backwards to see if that brightens the neck and darkens the bridge.

Bottom line, if I can sort out why the ProBuckers are doing what they're doing, then I have a better chance of selecting the proper replacement pups. Kinda like fixing a car. You can, like too many so called mechanics, throw new parts at it until you accidentally fix it or you can systematically figure out the problem and fix it the first time. Of course, if someone else with a Florentine had experienced the same dislike for the guitar I do, and fixed it, I wouldn't care how he or she did it, I'd just copy their work and get back to playing. That's what I was hoping for when I posted.

I'll post when I know.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I have a '59 neck and Seth Bridge in an Epiphone Dot. The '59 neck is probably the nicest clean sound you can get out of a humbucker. The Seth is a great pickup, but sounds much middier . . . which I like with overdrive.

I used to have issues getting the volume and tone to balance nicely between the two. Eventually I figured out that the Seth bridge sounds best with the tone knob rolled back a smidge and then matches the '59n with the volume rolled back one or two. It's a great combo that way.

 

[myatuck]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I have a '59 neck and Seth Bridge in an Epiphone Dot. The '59 neck is probably the nicest clean sound you can get out of a humbucker. The Seth is a great pickup, but sounds much middier . . . which I like with overdrive.

I used to have issues getting the volume and tone to balance nicely between the two. Eventually I figured out that the Seth bridge sounds best with the tone knob rolled back a smidge and then matches the '59n with the volume rolled back one or two. It's a great combo that way.

Thank you very much.

What do you think swapping your '59n for a '59b or, vice versa, your Seth 'b' for a 'n' would do for you?

Asking in case I come to the conclusion that my Florentine is part of the problem ... if not, I'd be perfectly happy with the adjustments you cited.

Thanks again.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I think the '59b in the neck would probably be too dark and too loud with the Seth bridge. The '59 bridge in the bridge is a great match to the '59 neck. Don't know about Seth bridge in the neck or Seth neck with '59 bridge (I suspect the latter would make the bridge seem too bright and the neck too middy and less sparkly though).

 

[AlexR]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

I have a '59 neck and Seth Bridge in an Epiphone Dot. The '59 neck is probably the nicest clean sound you can get out of a humbucker.

Wow, I'm always amazed at the different experiences people have with pickups. I had a '59 set in an Epi dot, and the stock 59 neck was one of the most dull uninspired tones I've had out of any Duncan.
I think my various tweaks got to an A2 bridge mag, UOA5 mag in the neck before I called it quits and sold off the pickups in another guitar.

OP - take my post with a grain of salt. I've not bought another 59 since and don't like them in any guise except for a 59/jazz hybrid - so many better choices to my ear including having both b & n being Seths

 

[myatuck]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Okay, pulled the ProBuckers. The cavities are nearly identical so no problem there. Surprising given the neck/body geometry, but a cavity is a cavity.

Pickups are labeled correctly, PB2 at the neck, PB3 at the Bridge.

Problem is, the 2 measures 8.61 (that'd be the neck) and the 3 measures 8.7 (bridge). Differential, next to nothing.

Best I can determine, that should be more like 8 and 8.7. Differential, circa .5 if not a bit more.

Which explains why I wasn't getting the expected differential when I measured them through the jack.

And, poses an interesting quandary.

I have good, consistent volume across the pair now and practically no differential.

Swapping them around is a waste of time, for all intents and purposes, they're the same pickup.

I'd like a bit brighter neck, don't go crazy on the bridge, and a more authentic PAF sound.

Seths and '59's are nearly identical in output with differentials in the .6-.9 range.

ProBuckers are A2, as are Seths. '59's are A5.

I know, before you say it, it's going to come down to my ears.

Still, be interested in additional observations.

Thanks

PS Got a call into Gibson regarding the readings on the ProBuckers.

PSS My guess is I've got 2-3's masquerading as a 2 and a 3. Which means if I had a 2, my neck would be darker still. Which leads me to think I want Seth (b) at the bridge, '59 (b) at the neck. Given what I have, that combo should give me comparable resistance ratings but a bit warmer voicing at the bridge and a bit brighter at the neck.

 

[blueman335]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Which explains why I wasn't getting the expected differential when I measured them through the jack.

I'd like a bit brighter neck, don't go crazy on the bridge, and a more authentic PAF sound.

PS Got a call into Gibson regarding the readings on the ProBuckers. PSS My guess is I've got 2-3's masquerading as a 2 and a 3. Which means if I had a 2, my neck would be darker still. Which leads me to think I want Seth (b) at the bridge, '59 (b) at the neck. Given what I have, that combo should give me comparable resistance ratings but a bit warmer voicing at the bridge and a bit brighter at the neck.

If you had a true PB2 in the neck (around 8k), it would be noticeably brighter than what you have now. A Seth neck is still a great option.

I've used '59N's for years in a variety of guitars, to get the sharper high end. But what sometimes comes along for the ride is a bassy/boomy low end, happening most often in LP's and 335's (haven't had that happen in SG's). Over the past 5 or 6 years, I've come to favor A2 PAF's in the neck slot (not all, as '57 Classics and PGN's are too warm and rounded for me). I really like Seth's and A2P's in the neck: they still have a nice cutting high end, a 'bigger' sound from the mids, and no boomy bass to contend with. The A2's give a richer, more complex tone than A5's.

 

[myatuck]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

If you had a true PB2 in the neck (around 8k), it would be noticeably brighter than what you have now. A Seth neck is still a great option.

I've used '59N's for years in a variety of guitars, to get the sharper high end. But what sometimes comes along for the ride is a bassy/boomy low end, happening most often in LP's and 335's (haven't had that happen in SG's). Over the past 5 or 6 years, I've come to favor A2 PAF's in the neck slot (not all, as '57 Classics and PGN's are too warm and rounded for me). I really like Seth's and A2P's in the neck: they still have a nice cutting high end, a 'bigger' sound from the mids, and no boomy bass to contend with. The A2's give a richer, more complex tone than A5's.

I came here asking for guidance and I think we're getting there. Thank you.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

^ Yep, and I think you're going the wrong way trying for a bridge pup in the neck.....the calibrated bridge pickups are wound for more thicker tone which will add more mud and less clarity in the neck slot (as well as the exta winds giving more of that as a matter of course).

And I have found the wind to be WAY more important than the magnet in fundamental tone shaping. One A2 pickup sounds in no way similar to any other A2 pickup if they have different winds. And just because a pickup is an A5 doesn't mean it will sound different in only the way that the mag's inherent tonality changes. The Seth I'd guess would be brighter as it is an uncluttered wind, it is also unpotted which makes it more lively.
The Seth also has a slighty lower neck K reading then the 59n (which adds brightness due to less of the same gauge wire), but also and way more important a much higher resonant frequency. This last bit is more important than the K figure as it shows how the magnet, wire and wind all combine. The higher figure means (assuming the figure is correct) that the Seth neck is way more bright than the 59n.

This is the link to the tone chart:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/comparetones

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Sorry. I was thinking it was probably understood from the whole '55/'59 thing that I play almost exclusively clean. British invasion, selected southern rock, a little blues. More about the song than the genre. Don't need versatility, I have other guitars. When I pull this Epi out, I'm looking for vintage PAF, nothing else and a little squeal every now and then from that Seth won't bother me a bit. Thanks

A vintage Les Paul made between '57 and '60 would have two more or less identically wound pickups although it's possible that Gibson might have mixed magnets. According to Seymour, some old pafs have alnico 2, some alnico 4, and some alnico 5 and it's possible that one pickup in a 50's Les Paul could use one magnet and the other a different magnet.

Possible. Not necessarily likely.

Gibson just didn't care. The overdriven tones we go for today were not the tones the Les Paul was designed to produce and rock music was looked down upon by Gibson well into the early 70's.

I know: I used to visit the Gibson factory back in the late 60's and early 70's and they were very conservative - even then.

Seth Lover, the inventor of the Gibson humbucker, specified alnico 2 and that's my preference too.

In any case, I think it would be a mistake to put a weaker neck pickup in the bridge position and a hotter bridge pickup in the neck position.

If you want to go with a bridge pickup as a neck pickup then at least use a bridge pickup in the bridge position as well.

That would be closer to the vintage 50's Les Pauls where both pickups are more or less identical.

The bridge version is closer to 50's specs, BTW. The modern neck model in a calibrated set is underwound slightly compared to most 50's paf's. The bridge model in modern paf sets is not overwound. It's the neck pickup that's slightly underwound.

So again: go with two bridge pickups if you're convinced you want a bridge pickup in the neck position.

That would be the way most vintage ('57 through '60) Les Pauls would have been.

But I wouldn't do that.

I'd go with a calibrated set: neck model in the neck position and bridge model in the bridge position.

That way they'll sound more balanced relative to each other.

Remember that the string moves a lot more over the neck pickup so it's going to be louder than the bridge pickup unless the neck pickup is underwound slightly. That's why Seymour makes a calibrated set.

But like I said: if you want a set that's closest to what would have been used in a real, late 50's Les Paul, go with TWO bridge pickups.

That would be what the Les Pauls used by Michael Bloomfield, Eric Clapton, Peter Green, Mick Taylor, Paul Kossoff, Duane Allman and Richard Betts would have had in their guitars.

Just my opinion.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Seth Lover '55 at the neck, '59 at the bridge.

Question: do I want '55n and '59b or do I want to intentionally install them backwards as in '55b at the neck and '59n at the bridge?

I could see this working out possibly. Seths are lower output and have a midrange honk to them, but they also have a spank/twang to them that typical humbuckers do not have (only the Antiquity Firebird pickup sound similar in my experience). The 59b, in my experience, is a good full-on 70s rock pickup, has more highs and a bit on the low mids to drive an amp. The 59n, in my experience, when lowered below the pickup ring almost to the rout in the body has a slight bright almost strat-like quality, though still mid heavy. It might match the output of a Seth bridge but be brighter and fuller - the 59n could be a fair bridge companion to a 55b as a neck. However, I don't think they would mix all that well in the middle position. Because of the midrange honk of a Seth, I'm not convinced a Seth bridge at the neck would be a great sound. Might lack the chime of a good neck pickup.

 

[myatuck]

Re: Newbie Wishing to Confirm Pickup Swap Details '59 '55 Thanks

Ordered Seth Lovers. In deference to the sound engineers who SHOULD know more than me, normal b and n configuration. Should be here Tuesday, in by Friday. Let you know a week or so after that. Thanks for all the help.