Nickel Silver vs. Brass
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LtKojak
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
In the case of Seymour Duncan, the use of nickelsilver on baseplates and HB covers reflects the attention to detail by refraining of building up eddy currents, associated with loss of medium-highs and highs, because of the use of Alnico magnets in most of their p'ups. Their ceramics compensate with a different wind.
In the case of Di Marzio, the use of brass on most medium- to high-output p'ups is because they need to tame the medium- and highs resonance peak due to their profuse use of ceramic magnets... although is mostly a question of reducing the costs to their absolute minimum, if you ask me.
HTH,
In the case of Seymour Duncan, the use of nickelsilver on baseplates and HB covers reflects the attention to detail by refraining of building up eddy currents, associated with loss of medium-highs and highs, because of the use of Alnico magnets in most of their p'ups. Their ceramics compensate with a different wind.
In the case of Di Marzio, the use of brass on most medium- to high-output p'ups is because they need to tame the medium- and highs resonance peak due to their profuse use of ceramic magnets... although is mostly a question of reducing the costs to their absolute minimum, if you ask me.
HTH,
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idsnowdog
Imperator of Indignation
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
I have swapped the baseplates on a few pickups from brass to nickel and visa versa to refine their tone. What I noticed is that nickel is loud, bright and resonant while brass is warm and round sounding. Nickel baseplates have a strong treble spike, attenuated midrange and hard bass response. While brass attenuates treble and thickens the midrange and bass frequencies. I believe that Dimarzio's choice of brass baseplates contributes to their characteristic midrange emphasis and their choice of hex poles is designed to fine tune their pickups tone by sharpening treble and bass response.
Pickups I have changed baseplates on:
I have swapped the baseplates on a few pickups from brass to nickel and visa versa to refine their tone. What I noticed is that nickel is loud, bright and resonant while brass is warm and round sounding. Nickel baseplates have a strong treble spike, attenuated midrange and hard bass response. While brass attenuates treble and thickens the midrange and bass frequencies. I believe that Dimarzio's choice of brass baseplates contributes to their characteristic midrange emphasis and their choice of hex poles is designed to fine tune their pickups tone by sharpening treble and bass response.
Pickups I have changed baseplates on:
- Dimarzio Super distortion - I like the SD but I always felt the bass/midrange was a little bloated and lacked resonance. So I switched the baseplate to nickel. The treble frequencies became more focused, midrange attenuated/cleared and the bass response became more resonant.
- Entwhistel HDN - The HDN is loud, hard and bright as hell with a nickel baseplate. I switched to a brass baseplate and the treble became sweet and round. Also the midrange and bass became rounder and more pronounced.
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JeffB
Let it B
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
So to further the discussion..where does PRS fit here?.. in the past 8 years, most of their pickups have used recreations of original pe wire from the original source and machine, and custom formulated alnico magnets based upon originals. Paul has destroyed a bunch of old favorite pickups to figure out all the quirks of wire, magnet and wind so as to recreate them close sonically but in a viable for production process. The clarity is through the roof with pickups like the 57/08,59/09,58/15 (and new LTs). My custom t-top winds with no wax, don't even have the kind of clarity my 57/08s do. It's uncanny.
The one thing I have noticed with brass plate pickups from DiMarzio and PRS over the years is they sound more "wet" if you will.
So to further the discussion..where does PRS fit here?.. in the past 8 years, most of their pickups have used recreations of original pe wire from the original source and machine, and custom formulated alnico magnets based upon originals. Paul has destroyed a bunch of old favorite pickups to figure out all the quirks of wire, magnet and wind so as to recreate them close sonically but in a viable for production process. The clarity is through the roof with pickups like the 57/08,59/09,58/15 (and new LTs). My custom t-top winds with no wax, don't even have the kind of clarity my 57/08s do. It's uncanny.
The one thing I have noticed with brass plate pickups from DiMarzio and PRS over the years is they sound more "wet" if you will.
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LtKojak
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
What what do I know, uh?
I've not had that many PRS on my workbench, but the few I had the opportunity to do a de-luxe setup, none stand out, on the contrary, all were kinda generic-sounding and not really that responsive to touch... and I know it's NOT the wood, as the same instruments with other either Duncan or "boutique" offerings sounded and behaved a lot better after the swaps.
What what do I know, uh?
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JeffB
Let it B
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
All I can say is my 57/08s are far better than any production pickups I have owned/played and as good or better than any custom winds I have owned or played. And I live with them on a daily basis against gibsons, duncans and custom winds and have since July of 2015. I'm not just futzing around with one here and there on someone elses guitar. And I play them all with the same strings, amps and speakers. And I have put the custom wind and duncans in the same guitar. Still not the same.
Not saying they are perfect. But they have a clarity I don't hear in many pickups at all, and the brass baseplate just seems odd.
I've not had that many PRS on my workbench, but the few I had the opportunity to do a de-luxe setup, none stand out, on the contrary, all were kinda generic-sounding and not really that responsive to touch... and I know it's NOT the wood, as the same instruments with other either Duncan or other "boutique" offerings sounded and behaved a lot better after the swaps.
What what do I know, uh?
All I can say is my 57/08s are far better than any production pickups I have owned/played and as good or better than any custom winds I have owned or played. And I live with them on a daily basis against gibsons, duncans and custom winds and have since July of 2015. I'm not just futzing around with one here and there on someone elses guitar. And I play them all with the same strings, amps and speakers. And I have put the custom wind and duncans in the same guitar. Still not the same.
Not saying they are perfect. But they have a clarity I don't hear in many pickups at all, and the brass baseplate just seems odd.
darthphineas
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
I see the baseplate issue as a little irrelevant. It's something the designer takes into consideration when making the pickups. DiMarzio and the Duncan company both use bother types to varying degrees.
It could be another step for some tweakers in Pickup modding. I think it'd have to the potential to produce more cork sniffing than mag swapping and different hybrids.
I see the baseplate issue as a little irrelevant. It's something the designer takes into consideration when making the pickups. DiMarzio and the Duncan company both use bother types to varying degrees.
It could be another step for some tweakers in Pickup modding. I think it'd have to the potential to produce more cork sniffing than mag swapping and different hybrids.
JeffB
Let it B
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Well my initial question was just simply what are the sonic differences. And I will defer to the knowledge of others who have done the apples comparison. But considering PRS' case, where we have all the same types of formulations of mags, poles/screws and wire and insulations as all the "booteek" winders..the extra clarity seems odd when the only significantly differing part is the baseplate.
It may be solely in the wind of course, but we are still talking about pickups based on re-engineering original pickups whether they are from PRS or a custom winder. And the PRS have a clarity I don't hear in even many booteek pickups even though they tout clarity, clarity, clarity.
It may fit into a corksniffer's argument, but that's not my intention.This is simply a curiosity thing for me...conventional wisdom says a brass plate should make for a pickup with warmer or darker tone...just like brass saddles vs. steel saddles. But clearly (npi) not the case here.
Well my initial question was just simply what are the sonic differences. And I will defer to the knowledge of others who have done the apples comparison. But considering PRS' case, where we have all the same types of formulations of mags, poles/screws and wire and insulations as all the "booteek" winders..the extra clarity seems odd when the only significantly differing part is the baseplate.
It may be solely in the wind of course, but we are still talking about pickups based on re-engineering original pickups whether they are from PRS or a custom winder. And the PRS have a clarity I don't hear in even many booteek pickups even though they tout clarity, clarity, clarity.
It may fit into a corksniffer's argument, but that's not my intention.This is simply a curiosity thing for me...conventional wisdom says a brass plate should make for a pickup with warmer or darker tone...just like brass saddles vs. steel saddles. But clearly (npi) not the case here.
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LtKojak
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
"De gustibus non disputandum est"
Peace. :friday:
Jeff, it's ok. You have your experience and I have mine. It's not necessary than one must prevail over the other at all cost. It's not a contest.
"De gustibus non disputandum est"
Peace. :friday:
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JeffB
Let it B
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Its not a win thing for me. Just saying I am not hearing it apples to apples (as can be)
Its not a win thing for me. Just saying I am not hearing it apples to apples (as can be)
darthphineas
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Not saying you are at all.
Maybe it's just inevitable that it's the rabbit hole that some of the sonic quests take.
There are stories of Paul getting way deep down into his pickup manufacturing over the past several years. He does seem to fancy himself as knowing quite a bit, so it will be interesting to see where he takes things.
All the different metals involved have an impact. Baseplate. Pole pieces. Wire. Cover. If applicable. Some builders use different alloys for all of those to suit their recipe. And how those factors are applied can have a lot to do with the clarity being heard.
Not saying you are at all.
Maybe it's just inevitable that it's the rabbit hole that some of the sonic quests take.
There are stories of Paul getting way deep down into his pickup manufacturing over the past several years. He does seem to fancy himself as knowing quite a bit, so it will be interesting to see where he takes things.
All the different metals involved have an impact. Baseplate. Pole pieces. Wire. Cover. If applicable. Some builders use different alloys for all of those to suit their recipe. And how those factors are applied can have a lot to do with the clarity being heard.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
You (or Paul) can design a pickup to have good treble and clarity with a brass baseplate, it's just a known pickup-makers' understanding that you will be, for example...losing some immediate percussive high treble from the attack when hitting the strings hard. But that doesn't mean the pickup won't have that characteristic, or even excel in that area, if other aspects are designed with that goal in mind.
Just like I can make a 1x10" combo sound bassy like it's got a subwoofer, and a 2x12" combo that sounds thin and harsh. I'm doing so in spite of the physical attributes, not in tandem with them. Just like one could make a ceramic magnet pickup that sounds dark, or an Alnico II that sounds bright and harsh.
Like Darth said, it's mostly a pickup designer's choice, in that assuming they've made the pickup sound exactly as intended, then whatever baseplate they chose is the "right" one. But as Kojak says, there are a lot of decisions made for OTHER reasons. In Dimarzio's case, they've almost always exclusively used brass, until recently with some PAF nods and new models. That, to me, is a manufacturing decision, not a tonal one. If you think about when they launched with brass baseplates in the 70s, brass was considered a "cool" material, with Dimarzio selling brass nuts, bridges, and hardware. And probably no one said "Lets see if a Super Distortion sounds better with nickel silver!" So now, decades later these are simply classic tones that are accepted as-is.
You (or Paul) can design a pickup to have good treble and clarity with a brass baseplate, it's just a known pickup-makers' understanding that you will be, for example...losing some immediate percussive high treble from the attack when hitting the strings hard. But that doesn't mean the pickup won't have that characteristic, or even excel in that area, if other aspects are designed with that goal in mind.
Just like I can make a 1x10" combo sound bassy like it's got a subwoofer, and a 2x12" combo that sounds thin and harsh. I'm doing so in spite of the physical attributes, not in tandem with them. Just like one could make a ceramic magnet pickup that sounds dark, or an Alnico II that sounds bright and harsh.
Like Darth said, it's mostly a pickup designer's choice, in that assuming they've made the pickup sound exactly as intended, then whatever baseplate they chose is the "right" one. But as Kojak says, there are a lot of decisions made for OTHER reasons. In Dimarzio's case, they've almost always exclusively used brass, until recently with some PAF nods and new models. That, to me, is a manufacturing decision, not a tonal one. If you think about when they launched with brass baseplates in the 70s, brass was considered a "cool" material, with Dimarzio selling brass nuts, bridges, and hardware. And probably no one said "Lets see if a Super Distortion sounds better with nickel silver!" So now, decades later these are simply classic tones that are accepted as-is.
Dave Locher
New member
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
According to some, yes.
I just got a brand-new Becky Lawrence L-90 and they make a big deal about the fact that it comes with "anti-magnetic" mounting screws and rubber tubes instead of springs. Because, you know, the other 99.98% of guitar pickups just sound so terrible with their steel mounting screws and springs.
BTW, the pickup has no base plate, either. Pickup is loaded into the plastic cover from the bottom and then filled with epoxy.
I'm willing to give it a try.
According to some, yes.
I just got a brand-new Becky Lawrence L-90 and they make a big deal about the fact that it comes with "anti-magnetic" mounting screws and rubber tubes instead of springs. Because, you know, the other 99.98% of guitar pickups just sound so terrible with their steel mounting screws and springs.
BTW, the pickup has no base plate, either. Pickup is loaded into the plastic cover from the bottom and then filled with epoxy.
I'm willing to give it a try.
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Technically nickel silver increases the resonant peak amplitude a very slight amount. Conventional wisdom is that nickel silver covers are better than brass, which is very true, but the cover is more important because it's directly in between the magnetized string and the coils. The eddy currents in the cover directly counteract the magnetism of the moving string. Since the base plate is on the underside of the pickup, it's far removed from where majority of magnetic interaction occurs. The baseplate causes eddy losses in the same respect that a cover does, but to only a tiny fraction of the degree. Since eddy currents increase with frequency, by definition they blunt high end response, but whereas the effect of a brass cover is audible, the effect of a brass base plate is not.
Technically nickel silver increases the resonant peak amplitude a very slight amount. Conventional wisdom is that nickel silver covers are better than brass, which is very true, but the cover is more important because it's directly in between the magnetized string and the coils. The eddy currents in the cover directly counteract the magnetism of the moving string. Since the base plate is on the underside of the pickup, it's far removed from where majority of magnetic interaction occurs. The baseplate causes eddy losses in the same respect that a cover does, but to only a tiny fraction of the degree. Since eddy currents increase with frequency, by definition they blunt high end response, but whereas the effect of a brass cover is audible, the effect of a brass base plate is not.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
Yes it is. How many pickups have you tried it on? If you don't think it's audible, or that it's so negligible that you don't care, that's fine, I can understand that. But lots of pickup makers, and tinkerers on this forum have swapped baseplates and heard a difference. You are right, that it's less significant than a cover.
frankfalbo
In Fluence Y'all
Re: Nickel Silver vs. Brass
I've proven it time and time again. Every time I have done it. In my world, either do it, and report back that you couldn't hear a difference, or accept the testimony of those who have actually done it.
I've proven it time and time again. Every time I have done it. In my world, either do it, and report back that you couldn't hear a difference, or accept the testimony of those who have actually done it.
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