No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

[korovamilkdud]

I was reading some of Seymour's Q and A last night and ran across the mod where you can roll off your vol. without losing highs. I was wondering if anyone had tried it and what cap values work best? Keeping in mind that I play a Les (though I don't think that matters...)

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

You might try a search for "treble bleed" over the past 2 months or so... there've been a lot of discussions about this. Everyone seems to have their own opinions, just like... oops, gotta' keep it clean

Caps seem to range from 680pf to .002uf. Some approaches add a resistor in parallel with the cap, others add a resistor in series with the cap.

Personally, I thought the S-D mod with a 100k resistor in parallel with a .002uf cap was too much of a good thing. For single coils, a .0012uf cap seems to work pretty well. Kinman recommends a 130k resistor in series with a .0012uf cap - the resistor reduces the effect of the cap somewhat, as explained here: http://www.kinman.com/html/toneWorkshop/perfectGuitar.htm#potValues just scoll down a little.

Hope this helps some,

Chip

 

[Gearjoneser]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I tried a 680uF across the volume pot on Pauls and McCarties, thought it was too bright when rolled off, so I chucked the whole idea. I gotta give some of these other options a try. I'll start with the .002 first, then try these res/cap ideas.

 

[korovamilkdud]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

Okay I've got a .001uf in now. It might be a bit bright, but I'm gonna leave it in for awhile and see how it works out. I know how to do it, that's what matters most to me right now.

 

[mrid]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

Are you referring to the infamous "50's mod." :laugh2: Simply move the capacitors to the middle lug of the volume pots.

 

[dr.barlo]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

There are 2 mods aimed at that.

1. the treble bleed mod, and I think JohnS has a great tutorial on that on the projectguitar site.

2. 50's mod! That's what MRID is talking about, and that's what I like.

B

 

[MattPete]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I've seen it mentioned and discussed many times on this board, but I guess I never really paid attention. How does the 50's mod work, and how it is conceptually different from standard wiring?

 

[Ken]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I recently installed a 50's wiring kit complete with those bigass Hovland caps.

The way there's was designed, it appeared to be two resistors in series coupled in parallel with a cap. That, or the entire thing was in series as resistor-cap-resistor.

 

[Al.C]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I put a 220K resistor in parallel with a .0025 cap on all my prs's. I love it. very transparent. At 10 the tone is normal and as you turn the volume down the tone stays very consistent. I wouldn't play an unmodded guitar anymore as I often play with the volume at the mid levels but do not want to lose the tone. It is not overly bright, just the same as at ten but not as loud.
I just got my new Brazilian Santana and as soon as I changed the strings to 10's adjusted the trem and neck I opened it up and added the resistor and cap. Again I really stand behind it and the values given have worked great for humbuckers with 500K pots.
I got the values from
http://www.fralinpickups.com/schm-general.htm

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I like the 50's mod and it's as simple as MRID suggests: In a Les Paul just unsolder the tone cap from the terminal the pickup is soldered to and move it to the middle terminal that leads to the switch.

Why it works is the subject of alot of complex discussion...but I think it's actually very simple.

If the tone cap is connected to the same terminal of the volume pot that the pickup is connected to that means that the tone control is subtracting or bleeding treble from the full output of the pickup...regardless of what the volume control is set to.

If the tone cap is connected to the middle terminal of the volume pot, and you have the volume control turned down, the tone control is NOT subtracting treble from the full output of the pickup. Instead it's subtracting or bleeding treble from a smaller, reduced signal after the volume control has lowered the output of the pickup.

The result is that less treble is subtracted and the overall tone stays brighter when the volume is reduced.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I picture it.

Lew

 

[Artie]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I could be wrong, but that's the way I picture it.

Lew

Wasn't that John Belushi on SNL that used to say . . .

. . . "Thats right, you're absolutely correct." :laugh2:

 

[MattPete]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

I like the 50's mod and it's as simple as MRID suggests: In a Les Paul just unsolder the tone cap from the terminal the pickup is soldered to and move it to the middle terminal that leads to the switch.

Why it works is the subject of alot of complex discussion...but I think it's actually very simple.

If the tone cap is connected to the same terminal of the volume pot that the pickup is connected to that means that the tone control is subtracting or bleeding treble from the full output of the pickup...regardless of what the volume control is set to.

If the tone cap is connected to the middle terminal of the volume pot, and you have the volume control turned down, the tone control is NOT subtracting treble from the full output of the pickup. Instead it's subtracting or bleeding treble from a smaller, reduced signal after the volume control has lowered the output of the pickup.

The result is that less treble is subtracted and the overall tone stays brighter when the volume is reduced.

I could be wrong, but that's the way I picture it.

Lew

Hmmm...I'm a little confused. Is this specific to Les Paul type wiring? Would this work with a strat where the tone and volume pots are wired indepedently?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

The 50's mod will work on a Tele easily. It'll work on a Strat if you have it set up for master volume and master tone...you could use the third hole for a blender pot. Lew

 

[Kent S.]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

Bear in mind that the HPF(high pass filter) volume kits (treble bypass kits) are not doing the same as the 50's wiring, which simply prevents (or lessens) treble loss when the volume is turned down.
The HPF kits actually create a treble boost when the pot is turned down (since the treble doesn't get turned down per se' it's now louder than what it would be ... hence it's boosted in comparison to the rest of the signal).
There are only about 20 different component selections by this person, that person, and their friends. Truth is, it depends on the guitar, the pups, the amps, cable capacitance ( yeah ...I see what Kinman is saying, but I think he's off his rocker on a couple of things), and the effect the player wants to get.
The role of whether the resistor is in series with the cap, or in parallel, or not used at all, needs to be understood. There a lot of details I could go into, although much may be esoteric, along with a ton of frequency/amplitude graphs that I've done in regard to this particular subject (among other ways of combating treble loss, and manipulating a pups resonant peak) ... Right Chip? ... :laugh2:.
Thing is, what you have in regard to component placement, and values is what will best work in a given situation with your gear. There is no *right values or placement*. Also note that a HPF (treble bypass) volume kit by it's very nature changes it's effect and characteristics as the volume control is moved thru various settings. The '50s wiring tends to maintain a more even response tonally (whether this is good or not is in the ears of the player).
They are two different animals, but can both be done also, if desired ...
Also note that if a guitar has a control wired as a variable load volume control, then the effect of the HPF is greatly diminished. Food for thought.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

The treble bleed cap method (installing a small capacitor across the input and output of a volume pot) means that the treble frequencies will always be full on...they will not be attenuated by turning the volume control down because they won't pass through the volume control. The treble frequencies will just pass through the cap, bypass the volume control, and go straight to your output jack basically. Lew

 

[JfromHouston]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

THis is what I used: http://www.rsguitarworks.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=31

no more muddy neck or loss of highs when I roll back the volume on either pup. The tone pot actually works now too.

J

 

[korovamilkdud]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

Okay I've got a .001uf in now. It might be a bit bright, but I'm gonna leave it in for awhile and see how it works out. I know how to do it, that's what matters most to me right now.

Yeah, I quoted myself, arent I cool?

I like what I've got now. /\ /\

But about that 50's mod...does that have more highs with the volume on 10, or does it really just take effect when you roll the volume down?

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

Yeah, I quoted myself, arent I cool?

I like what I've got now. /\ /\

But about that 50's mod...does that have more highs with the volume on 10...

In theory: NO. In actual practice: MAYBE

Lew

 

[Artie]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

But about that 50's mod...does that have more highs with the volume on 10, or does it really just take effect when you roll the volume down?

Like Lew said, it really shouldn't. A "normal" tone control and the 50's mod are electrically identical when the volume control is on 10. There shouldn't be any difference.

When a potentiometer is at either end of its travel, its just a resistor with two lugs on one end.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: No-treble-loss-when-roll-down-vol.-mod?

The treble bleed cap method (installing a small capacitor across the input and output of a volume pot) means that the treble frequencies will always be full on...they will not be attenuated by turning the volume control down because they won't pass through the volume control. The treble frequencies will just pass through the cap, bypass the volume control, and go straight to your output jack basically. Lew

I just said that ... :laugh2: